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Posted - Feb 27 2016 : 2:15AM
From Goldstein Earlier:
Even before I read Goldstein's piece here I was already thinking of this subject -- but he nailed it perfectly
America is in Civil War II. It's not a Hot War with two immediately recognizable, uniformed armies, but it is happening. When you -- in 2016 -- have a size of the population that says Slavery should never have been abolished, you know there's a problem.
We can discuss all day about Today's Fort Sumter -- was it the day Donald Trump announced? Election night 2008? The 1994 Midterm Elections? Nixon's Election? The Signing of the Civil Rights Act?
Or was it April 10th, 1865? The day after Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattox? It is clear to me now that just like WWI left many dangerously dangling loose ends (seeds were laid for the rise of Fascism and Nazism; the breakup of the Ottoman Empire) as did WWII (the Soviet domination of Eastern Europe; the breakup of Korea) nothing was settled at the conclusion of the physical portion of the Civil War.
The ideologies of white supremacy and emancipation from Northern Aggression still beat within the hearts of many Americans. They're not all from the South. They're not even all White. But there is the feeling that they are puppets on a string being manipulated by a variety of forces: The Media. The Corporations. The Universities. The Jewish Bankers. The Feminists. The Hippies. The Intellectuals. These Guys. Those Guys. Whoever. Everyone Who Doesn't Look Like Me.
I mentioned earlier in the Elections 2016 Thread about how candidates from Massachusetts (Dukakis, Kerry, Romney) are instantly viewed with revulsion and suspicion from The South. Why?
What did they ever do except rate highly in almost every positive State metric, and low in almost all the negative ones? Who wouldn't want to live in a state like Massachusetts with high employment rates and high rates of a college-educated populace and exposure to the arts?
Well, as it turns out, holy shit, LOTS of people. Our reddest states: West Virginia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Kansas, Alabama, Georgia, are states that consistently rank in the bottom 10 of positive state metrics. For years, liberals have labored under the perception that we have a story to tell, that we have a duty to -- like the old religious hymnal goes -- let our light shine. But lo, and behold, that story is one that doesn't travel well. One would have better luck trying to sell suntan lotion to Swedes. A monastery would do better to set up a recruitment booth at FSU. Obama spoke of conservatives clinging to bitterness, guns and religion, and was met with a hearty, "Yeah, so What?"
This is the country we live in. A country where they worship the image of a 1950s America that never was, or worse, an 1850s America that really was. For years, they've waited for someone like Donald Trump who would be their bold avatar. Hate Trump all you want, but the truth of the matter is, all he's done is turn the lights on, and revealed all the roaches in the kitchen. He didn't create them. Fox News didn't create them. Neither did Newt Gingrich, David Duke or Joseph McCarthy. They've Always Been There. It's like that horror movie.
It is apparent that we have reached a rubicon in this country. There's no going back. If a failed uprising from 150+ years ago hasn't been consigned to the ash bin of history by now, then it never will be. It is now apparent that we've simply been lucky in this country to not have the so-called "legitimate" extreme Right Wing forces take flight here as opposed to, say, National Front. But is also apparent that it was only a matter of time. Win or lose, Donald Trump has exposed an ugly truth: it's OK. Intolerance is OK. Rage is OK. Spite is OK. It's more than OK, it's your right as an American! Does this silver spoon clod really believe what he's spouting? Probably not, but that's OK too!
Trump has simply harnessed the collective anger that's out there, and it really wasn't hard to do. One reason why conservatives do so well in election is that the Base has a mania that equals religious fervor. They buy the books, the listen to the talk shows for hours on end, they watch Fox for hours on end, they scour the internet, they join clubs, they march and go to meetings and above all they run for office and vote in greater numbers than liberals. Sure they claim they hate all politicians and say the Republican party has let them down in so many ways, but at the end of the day, they pull the lever for the "R", just to be sure.
We will start to see more Donald Trumps appearing in state legislatures, and in Congress and in the governor's mansions. Paul Le Page of Maine, it is now obvious from hindsight, was the ur-Trump. He spent his entire first term being hateful, ugly and despicable --- and he got voted back in again! Sam Brownback pretty much destroyed the economic well-being of Kansas -- and he got voted back in again! Apathy among the non-conservatives may be a bigger cause of concern than the activism of the Base.
I personally believe we are closer to seeing President Donald Trump and Vice President Sarah Palin than any reasonable person can possibly imagine. If not now, then twenty years from now for certain.
The War's not over yet. However, the cease-fire may soon be at an end.
 
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Posted - Feb 27 2016 : 3:48AM
These 4 sentences could apply to either left or right on the political spectrum. No incident better illustrates this than Professor Click's, "can I have some muscle over here" line at UM last year.
I think Chris Matthews has it right regarding Trump. His appeal is nationalistic in nature. It is neither left or right. Ordinary people see themselves being minimalized politically by both parties and vote what they believe to be their self-interest.
Why do the people of cities like Baltimore and Detroit pull the D lever decade after decade? The reward is lousy schools, crime ridden streets, and poor public services. You'd think once in a while they'd elect a GOPer like NYC does. Yet, foolishly perhaps, they think the next Democratic mayor and company are going to be their saviors. Rational?
Sure, it's a passionate year politically and the Republican race is often comically fierce. But, I don't see any political Armageddon on the horizon. We'll elect a president and a new Congress and all go on living our lives. We have survived assassinations and wars, we'll survive some yelling and name-calling.
Finally, after Dukakis' first term, the Democratic Party in Massachusetts voted him out as their nominee in favor of the more conservative Ed King. There was plenty there not to love. Holier than thou Mike raised taxes. He did regain his job in part because King liked the good life ( too many lobsters dinners on the public dime).

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Posted - Feb 27 2016 : 7:17AM
Not the same war, but it is on schedule. America has national crises at regular intervals: Revolutionary War, Civil War, Great Depression, and now this. In those crises a charismatic leader appears. One of those leaders, George Washington, helped carve a new nation out of a larger empire.
 
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Posted - Feb 27 2016 : 11:04AM
A certain east-coast governor just put in a bid for the VP slot, so Palin may not be a shoo-in.
 
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Posted - Feb 27 2016 : 11:22AM
I think part of the problem is how the Civil War is or at least was taught when I went through secondary school. What was taught, at least in New England, was not the reality of the situation. I have learned through post-secondary education that the civil war was deeply complex yet in New England it was turned into evil slave holders verses not evil slave holders, which wasn't even true. There were evil slave holders in the north as well. The families of those who fought on the side of the Confederate States of America are still alive. I think proper secondary education on the matter would help a lot. How can a country move on from something that is completely misconstrued within the secondary educational institutes. And the heritage of those who fought on the side of the Confederacy is under attack. The Virginia battle flag, which has become the symbol of the Confederate side of the civil war is now being banned as a racist symbol. For those who honestly use it now as a sign of their heritage, having it called racist has got to be hard. Again, better education would help. If a neo-Nazi has a US flag in the background we don't ban it all over as a symbol of hate. But when it is any other object we do. In my higher education there were issues that other students had because the swastika was in all sorts of ancient Roman designs. Students honestly thought it related to the heinous crimes of the Nazi party. Because the Nazi's corrupted the swastika it is now a symbol of hate. The same thing is being done with the Virginia battle flag. Neo-Nazi's have corrupted it and it is becoming a symbol of hate. Instead education is the best option. Instead of villainizing what a group corrupts as a symbol when it seems handy, we need an educational system that educates on the wrongs of the group not symbols. When everything in one's heritage gets attacked, the group will tend to band together to save their heritage even if that means associating with people who's beliefs one finds deplorable.
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Posted - Feb 27 2016 : 2:06PM
That's it, though. He may not have created the cockroaches. But he's encouraging hostility, and very effectively. That's not nothing.
 
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Posted - Feb 27 2016 : 8:27PM
Since Smiler Grogan took my original post and has started a new thread here with it, here is the rest of my post he didn't include here:
(Thanks for the "he nailed it perfectly" compliment.)

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Posted - Feb 27 2016 : 10:38PM
I don't buy the premise of the thread. What we're seeing with Trump is petulant, dim-witted people who think that voting for an emotionally-appealing cartoon character who has no actual qualifications for the office is somehow "making a statement," or is otherwise a productive thing to do. It's the same phenomenon that led to the sitting governor of California being essentially deposed and replaced by Arnold Schwarzenegger. I think that Trump, like Schwarzenegger, is a narcissist and a self-promoter, has no deeply-held political convictions, and will do or say whatever he thinks will bring him attention/approval at any particular moment. It would be deeply embarrassing if Trump were to be elected president, but it would still be preferable to the other GOP candidates, all of whom are either a part of, or beholden to, the extreme right wing.

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Posted - Feb 27 2016 : 10:55PM
I'm in line with what Harri said. Also, Trump's peaking early, I think this hate agenda loses some shine by November. Go Dems!
 
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Posted - Feb 28 2016 : 1:23AM
Ah yes, that good old False Equivalence...
That's it? That's your best example? Surely you have some account of Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders having a protester dragged out of their speeches? Or can point to an example where one of them said they were going to deport all Jews, or ban Christians from other countries from entering the US?
If that is what Matthews said, he's even more full of it than I thought. When you advocate deporting undocumented immigrants, banning Islam and abridging the freedom of the press, you are most assuredly NOT speaking to liberals.
Baltimore and Detroit are NOT the same city and do not have the same roots to their problems. Just because they both have large black populations doesn't mean they're carbon copies of each other. Baltimore is a wonderful city with the violence concentrated on the East Side. Otherwise it's schools are just fine as are it's public services.
Detroit on the other hand, -- the actual city limit parts that is -- has never fully recovered from the auto industry shakeup. It stands as a monument to the lesson that you can't be a one-industry town. But Detroit The Metro Area is actually doing quite well. In fact, the Metro Area has, arguably, prospered at the expense of The Actual City.
At any rate, Rudy Giuliani and Michael Bloomberg were good for New York sure, but it's not like the city became a paradise.
Yeah, that's what everybody said about Dubya. That turned out pretty well.
Newsflash: having a good, stable city or state requires income, usually in the form of ...taxes. As much as Sam Brownback or Bobby Jindal might tell you otherwise, believe me, it's necessary.
BTW, how can you criticize a Baltimore or Detroit for "poor schools" and "poor public services" at one point, and then in another paragraph criticize taxes? The one offsets the other.
 
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Posted - Feb 28 2016 : 1:27AM
Well I hope you're right, but again, Bush-Cheney. There's an incredible amount of damage a dimwit can do in four years.
And also again, Trump is a sideshow attraction, sure, but if he loses, I can't help but wonder what sort of extremist idiot the conservative base will be pushing in 2020 or 2024.
 
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Posted - Mar 2 2016 : 10:29AM
 
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Posted - Mar 2 2016 : 10:33AM
[link inactive:Server error]Donald Trump: Not Racist, But #1 Among Racists*
*tip o' the hat to The Simpsons
 
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Posted - Mar 2 2016 : 11:00AM

 
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Posted - Mar 10 2016 : 12:57PM

*Thus far. There's surely more to come, including the mass roundups at the inauguration.

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Posted - Mar 10 2016 : 3:32PM
I was just talking to someone in RL how the US doesn't seem to have really dealt with the fact that so much of the South continues to be so politically different than the rest of the country. It's a simpilfication but seems to have a lot of truth to it.
Imagine what would have happened if the South had become its own country? Look at the rates of poverty and poor education and that's with the support of the hated Federal government and liberal states!

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Posted - Mar 10 2016 : 6:07PM
Just like Europe ignoring worrying trends before WW2, and now ignoring worrying trends in inequality, trade, xenophobia, and authoritarianism. The West in general keep making these mistakes.

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Posted - Mar 10 2016 : 8:08PM
I'm guessing that Mexico would be trying to build a wall to keep them out.
Or maybe they'd still have slavery. It's a lot easier to have prosperity of the few on the backs of the many--which I guess they still support.

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Posted - Mar 11 2016 : 9:05AM
Baltimore is an Independent City. And you don't get out very much. And watch to much cable news. Detroit's economic base relied on the Auto Industry. And oh, the Republicans never raise taxes. Ehrlich nearly tripled Baltimore City Taxes. And he was a Republican. I can keeping typing about the Republicans in Maryland but I would take more effort than I am willing at the moment.
 
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Posted - Jun 3 2016 : 12:28AM

Apr 1, 2016 - By Jonna Ivin
 
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Posted - Jun 15 2016 : 2:14AM

It was clear to many of us before Orlando, but hey, thanks for the co-sign...
 
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Posted - Jun 15 2016 : 11:52AM
Y'all know the way to the Trump rally?
BobEwelllCar.jpg
 
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Posted - Jun 15 2016 : 12:48PM
^
 
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Posted - Nov 18 2016 : 2:49AM

By Paul Waldman November 16

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Posted - Nov 19 2016 : 12:26AM
The right works as a team, the left can't agree on anything. Why in a swing state, and could vote, and you didn't, and you thought Trump was an ass didn't you vote? I mean fucking Pennsylvania voted for Trump. I expected those red necks in places like York County, and upstate to vote for him in droves, but what the hell were people in Philadelphia doing, or Pittsburgh? Philly to the east, Pitt to the west, and Alabama in the middle is Pennsylvania. One giant dump!
If Clinton was Quanisha Jones, and had the same baggage the blacks would have turned out hard for her. They didn't. Clinton got 200,000 less votes then Obama in 2012 in Maryland.
And don't be surprised when they sit on their hands in 4 years.
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"You have sacrificed nothing and no one."
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Posted - Nov 19 2016 : 8:41AM
Voting for Hillary, by an over 400,000 vote margin over Trump.
But, one city, with the most vaunted get-out-the-vote machine in the country, doesn't carry the entire state

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Posted - Nov 20 2016 : 11:58PM
Do you think that red neck state would ever vote Blue if it wasn't for Pittsburgh, and Philadelphia? Pennsylvania is yahooville.
 
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Posted - Nov 21 2016 : 11:11AM

And I get what Zachary is saying -- he's not saying "Let's All Pack Our Bags Tomorrow!" . He's saying that secession should be discussed seriously and put on the table in social and political discussions as a bargaining chip.
 
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"You have sacrificed nothing and no one."
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Posted - Nov 21 2016 : 11:34AM
No. By definition, Pennsylvania is not "yahooville," or a "red neck state."
Why does it matter where people live geographically for their vote to be considered equally valid?
Trump beat Hillary by a 57,119 vote margin (out of 5,957,819 votes cast for president).
That's a .0096 percent margin (less than one percent of the total votes cast).
[link inactive:504 - Gateway error]Pennsylvania Department of State 2016 Election Returns
And this is out of a total pool of .
So, it would appear that Trump beat Hillary by less than one percent of the roughly 72 percent of registered voters who even bothered to vote.
(Nationally, only about 58% of registered voters voted in 2016.)
Put another way, the 2016 presidential election in Pennsylvania was decided by less votes (i.e. 57,119) than capacity seating at , the college football stadium in University Park, Pennsylvania, on the campus of The Pennsylvania State University (i.e. official seating capacity of 106,572).
So, if you can imagine Beaver Stadium about half-full (actually at 53.6 percent of capacity), that's how many votes Trump won Pennsylvania by in 2016.
And, guess what, even that would be a mixture of "redneck yahoos" and Eastern elites
And, "redneck yahoo" Pennsylvania voting Democratic vs Republican seven out of the last 11 presidential elections:
PA_PresidentialVote.JPG
Why, that's even less "redneck yahoo" than the United States voted as a whole
Ah yes, that sweet Trump redneck yahoo 2016 "landslide": net loss of two GOP Senate seats; net loss of six GOP House seats; losing the national popular vote by about 1.3 million votes (AP, 2016-11-21); all while winning an Electoral College victory.

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Posted - Nov 21 2016 : 12:26PM
From ^^

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Posted - Nov 21 2016 : 12:41PM
It's a fine question, but never forget--the map changes. Sooner or later, the U.S. won't look like it does now, and the only question is whether the changes are peaceful.
The Social Security question is already a matter of law. If you retire to other countries, you don't have Medicare coverage there, but your Social Security will be sent to you. For people who haven't yet paid in enough quarters to qualify, arrangements could be made for that. For instance, the U.S. has an agreement with Canada to recognize or credit time paying into the Canadian system. Tax treaties take care of things like that.
The American dollar is a bad idea. One of the questions I had before the EU was how Portugal with its economy could equitably share a currency with Germany. You won't want to have the same currency. As with other situations, you'd turn in your U.S. dollars for Pacifica dollars (or exchange them into your 'new' Canadian dollars at the current exchange rate), and from then on, the currencies would diverge in value.
Yes, you would assume your share of U.S. national debt, and yes, receive a portion of U.S. assets, such as military bases and equipment in your own territory, and there could be a gradual phase-out of military protection from the U.S., or some agreements could be reach for paid protection. If you cease to be part of the pentagon and its goals, you may become less of a target, as well.

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Posted - Nov 21 2016 : 3:57PM
Bull crap!

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Posted - Nov 21 2016 : 4:43PM
Naughty!
uh uh uh.jpeg
Edited by - Pieps on 11/22/2016 12:11:49 AM
 
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Posted - Nov 21 2016 : 9:45PM
Goldstein wishes to go on record as being against Secession.
Sure, contemplating "Pacifica" might bring some cheer to our weary souls, but secession is a very bad idea.

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Posted - Nov 22 2016 : 12:11AM
[link inactive:404 - Page not found]California secession petition drive.
It might be a bad idea, but if they are successful, I'll move there. I have family and friends there. I will do it out of self-interest, at this point. Sure, the rest of the nation will circle the drain faster without a few of the better states, but I'm tired of being dragged down. Let them struggle with their own bad ideas.
 
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Posted - Nov 22 2016 : 1:22AM
I concur. I know it may never happen, and I know if it did -- the remaining US would turn into a total shitshow. If the Northeast and New England decide to form their own megastate, the remaining middle would be in for sheer hell. Think North Korea with a Southern Accent.
But I'm genuinely, physically, sick and tired of the way things are now. We've got a party that used to put forth men like Teddy Roosevelt, and Eisenhower and has now devolved all the way down to George W. Bush and Trump. I really do NOT want to see what they come up with in 10-20 years.
I'm not going to leave for Canada or anything, but yeah, if a secessionist movement seriously breaks out on either coast, I'm with it.
 
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Posted - Nov 22 2016 : 1:41AM

*I'd be willing to bet my life savings they'd let us keep the American flag.
Confederate flag.jpg


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Posted - Nov 22 2016 : 2:02AM
Actually, this thought is most frequently occurring whenever a pickup truck cuts me off on the road.

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Posted - Nov 22 2016 : 8:22AM
Goldy can throw all the numbers around he likes. I live 22 miles from the Mason Dixon, and know much of PA quite well. And yes, they have not voted for a Repub since 88' for Pres, (Maryland the same) still. And for fun check out a place like Bucks County. The county Philly is surrounded by. What a mess. Gun toting nutose.
I don't know how often State Capitols file for Bankruptcy, but Harrisburg did. Does that equate with rednecks? YES
Oh, and every little tax under the sun. I remember when they instituted the school tax. It morphed into an expensive slush fund. And I remember many people that made the mistake in the late 80's, early 90's moving up there because housing, and property taxes were cheaper. Not anymore...........
If they had only bought, or stayed in the right areas of Baltimore they would be laughing all the way to the bank instead of being stuck in that mess of a state.
As soon as you drive into the state on some of the worst roads in the country there are advertising billboards everywhere. Along with mcmansion type developments dotting the scenery along 83 no doubt being from the last build boom a decade ago.
Of course they are angry up there. I would be angry if I lived in an economic wasteland. Where do they come for work? Maryland. And the young are just moving down here.
 
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"You have sacrificed nothing and no one."
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Posted - Nov 22 2016 : 9:33PM
Sean "2ferme" Hannity doesn't know the difference between angry, unemployed [invalid URL removed]blue-collar workers in the Rust Belt, and rednecks. How sad!
#youmightbearedneckif

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Posted - Nov 22 2016 : 9:57PM
And pay for it themselves, instead of with the billions of dollars per year that are being sucked out of California and handed to them (while they watch wingnut fakenews which assures them that "California is bankrupt" and smile smugly).
 
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Posted - Nov 24 2016 : 12:59PM

No. Not Yet Anyway....
They would love to be able to cancel out the First Amendment.
 
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Posted - Nov 27 2016 : 1:13PM
So Lincoln was wrong? Kinda makes you think if all those deaths in the Civil War were in vain.
 
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Posted - Nov 27 2016 : 1:36PM
Not "wrong" per se....
...He just probably could never have imagined that these guys would still be holding a grudge 150 years later.

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Posted - Nov 27 2016 : 4:25PM
The biggest boo-hoo ever.
 
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Posted - Nov 27 2016 : 11:49PM
All deaths in wars fought for the benefit of society's richest are always in vain. And have no doubt,
 
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Posted - Dec 9 2016 : 1:50AM
Time Magazine Knows The Deal:
rump time cover.jpg
RUMP DIVIDED CLOSE UP.jpeg
 
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Posted - Jan 22 2017 : 12:10AM
Another example of where we are and the diametrically opposed parts of the country. No Trump is not going to unite us. His entire rise to power was built on the politics of division. (Whether planned or not. Probably not.) There is no political capital to be gained in any way whatsoever by "unity."
And make no mistake, McConnell and Ryan and the rest of Congress knows this. Do you think they care about the polls that shows Congress as being "unpopular"? Do you think they care about Inauguration attendance? Or about Saturday Night Live making fun of them? Or whatever this guy or that guy from the Times or the Post had to say last Sunday? Please. They care about the voting numbers. As long as they've got the South, Texas, and the Midwest locked in, they could give two shits about being "loved." Washington is the town that created the term, "If you want love, get a dog." (they may try to have a talk with Trump about his bottomless pit of need for acceptance that wanders in and out of his medulla oblongata at random)
Jan 20th, (or 11/8/2017, maybe) will, perhaps, go down in history as the moment when the two parts of this county bifurcated forever. There can't be any "coming together" after Trump. There will be no "National Conversations" about anything. This is it. This is the reality. This is where we are now, and forever.

 
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Posted - Apr 24 2017 : 10:37AM

Naturally, white Southerners think this is the end of America as we know it.

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Posted - Apr 24 2017 : 7:18PM
^ It's white southerners removing the monuments.
I was raised in New England, went to college and worked my first job for four years after college in upstate New York. I have been in the south for more than half my life now. The confederate battle flag needed to be removed from government facilities. It was a symbol used during the battles that tried to divide the nation. But these monuments, in public places, not government facilities, are historic and works of art. They should be preserved.
Edited by - tripper on 4/25/2017 7:34:26 AM
 
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Posted - Apr 25 2017 : 9:02AM
An inscription on the Liberty Place monument in New Orleans, added in 1934,
liberty-place.jpg
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