Featured New Release

Studio: Team Skeet
Release date: 8/21/2019


All smartbuydisc.rus > World News Nonsense > America Is Still Fighting The Civil War > America Is Still Fighting The Civil War (page 2)
Page 2 of 3 First 2 Last
AuthorPost

Senior Member

1386 Posts
3/06
Posted - Apr 26 2017 : 11:28AM
You picked one that is not a civil war monument, not artistic, and not of significant historical value. The Liberty Place monument has been controversial for decades and should have been removed long ago.
These are the other monuments being removed from New Orleans.
Gen. Beauregard Equestrian Statue, listed on the National Register of Historic Places
monument BeauregardStatue.jpg
Robert E. Lee Monument, listed on the National Register of Historic Places
monument Robert E. Lee.jpg
Jefferson Davis Monument
monument jeff-davis.jpg
Edited by - tripper on 4/26/2017 12:00:24 PM

Senior Member

"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
6995 Posts
11/13
Posted - Apr 26 2017 : 12:48PM
"Usurpers" and "our state" AND "white supremacy." A trifecta. I hope these monuments are preserved for a museum.

Senior Member

1386 Posts
3/06
Posted - Apr 26 2017 : 5:34PM
Pieps, a museum is a good idea. Unfortunately they're going to warehouse storage "until a suitable location can be found". I fear they will never see the light of day again.
Richmond, Virginia was the capital of the confederacy. There is a street called Monument Avenue with some truly historic monuments. A section of the Avenue is on the National Register of Historic Places, and now Richmond is in discussions to remove the monuments. It's not yet decided, I have no idea which way it will go. Here is a sampling some of the monuments that could be lost.
Jefferson Davis
mon Jeff Davis Richmond.jpg
Robert E. Lee
mon robert_e_lee richmond.jpg
Jeb Stuart
mon Jeb Stuart Richmond.jpg
Matthew F. Maury
mon Maury Richmond.jpg
Stonewall Jackson
mon Stonewall Richmond.jpg
 
Golden Age Classic

13508 Posts
5/01
Posted - Apr 26 2017 : 5:48PM
Actually Richmond is in discussions to put educational signage in at the statues to put them in context.
to see fewer adsAdult DVD Talk is Sponsored by
email for advertising info

Senior Member

1386 Posts
3/06
Posted - Apr 26 2017 : 6:26PM
^ Really, I saw some news about potential removal after the Charlston murders, and after some were defaced. Do you have a link to that?
 
Golden Age Classic

13508 Posts
5/01
Posted - Apr 26 2017 : 7:41PM
It has been on the WRIC nightly news (I live in RVA).

Senior Member

1386 Posts
3/06
Posted - Apr 26 2017 : 8:07PM
Nice, thanks for that news. I am a big proponent of preserving history and pro education, so I find your news a very big plus on both issues. 20 years ago I was in Richmond on buisness and went to the Museum of Fine Arts which held at that time, to my understanding, the largest public public display of Faberge Eggs and jewelry donated by Lilian Thomas Pratt.
 
Golden Age Classic

13508 Posts
5/01
Posted - Apr 26 2017 : 8:50PM
Largest Fabrege Egg collection in America, and still is. They are beautiful beyond words and free to go see.

Senior Member

1386 Posts
3/06
Posted - Apr 27 2017 : 8:30PM
This is a bit off topic, but sort of relatied since Pieps brought the museum idea, and it is racist related and I don't want to start a new thread.
When they first opened the Holocaust Museum in DC, my first reaction was why is this needed? Then over the following years I saw more information about Holocaust deniers, and I said WTF. My views changed. At the time, I was in DC for business on a routine basis, so about 2000 I got some tickets on-line for a scheduled visit.
Many people say the thing they find most striking is the shoe display just before you leave. The thing I found most striking was the railroad car that the people were transported in that they allow you to walk though. It sent chills up my spine. This tiny little car they would pack 100 people into with tiny little vents. There were many people packed around the restricted display of Mengeles videos, I had no interest in this. The historic videos are great.
In any event, I am now a supporter of the Holocause Museum in DC and really like Pieps idea that these statues that are being removed from New Orleans, and possibly other areas, should be preserved in a museum. The history should not be forgotten.
 
All-Star Member

Woman of the Decade
13923 Posts
1/08
Posted - Apr 29 2017 : 11:04AM
^Agree.
As we get further away from that period, and as more and more generations are born away from those respective eras, educational opportunities (museums, films, books) must be preserved.
 
All-Star Member

flickr.com/jman5245
4291 Posts
5/09
Posted - May 7 2017 : 10:27PM
[link inactive:404 - Page not found]NYT: Tempers Flare Over Removal of Confederate Statues in New Orleans

Senior Member

1386 Posts
3/06
Posted - May 28 2017 : 4:53PM
^ These protestors are really showing poorly, flying the confederate flag and acting like a bunch of redenecks. They are obviously not well organized and don't understand, or care, what thay look like.
Hey Flash, you have any news on other monuments in Virginia? I saw a judge has temporarily blocked the removal of the Lee statue in Charlottesville.

I have already stated I think these monuments should be preserved, but I understand the opposing view point. I like Pieps idea from earlier, that if they are taken down, they should go to a museum to be preserved for history. Flash, I would like to know your view on this.
 
Golden Age Classic

13508 Posts
5/01
Posted - May 28 2017 : 5:17PM
Susan Platt, one of the candidates for Lt. Gov. has resparked the debates because part of her campaign is to remove all the Confederate statuary, roads, etc if she wins.
My personal take is that they shouldn't be removed. I liked Levar Stoney's plan for Richmond of leaving them in place and putting in signage to contextualize them, which seemed to be the way it was going to go until Platt started everything back up. Instead of spending all this money to remove them I want to see the money spent on finishing some of the other exhibits here that are laying around unfinished.
The Lumpkins Jail site was started and has been left unfinished here. Due to the multi-year project on Main Street Station, if you follow the signage for it you can't even get there. That site should be finished.
Next to that sits the Winfree Cottage on a trailer. That was supposed to be put on exhibit years ago.
Why spend good money ripping stuff down and putting new stuff up when we have exhibits that need to be finished and are being ignored. There are several of the old black schools sitting empty decaying that could be made into exhibits and museums (most of those are in Henrico -- but still).
Like it or not, Richmond -- and thus Virginia too -- was the home of the Confederacy. Trying to rip it down and hide it away is just trying to hide from our history. Personally I think turning what we have here as educational tools is the best practice.

Senior Member

1386 Posts
3/06
Posted - May 28 2017 : 5:42PM
^ Flash, thanks for that update, gives me few things to look up.
I don't think reasonable Americans today like the Civil War, but it happened, and it is part of our history. That Richmond and Virginia were the home of the Confederacy is a part of our history. As I am sure you are aware, Lee was offered the command of the Union army. People today do not understand all the "States Rights" issues of the time, but Lee turned it down because he felt leading the Army of Virginia was his duty, and he was protecting his homeland. Lee was an honorable man.
to see fewer adsAdult DVD Talk is Sponsored by
email for advertising info
 
Golden Age Classic

13508 Posts
5/01
Posted - May 28 2017 : 5:47PM
If you take the state capital tour here they actually go into the Civil War quite a bit.
 
All-Star Member

13083 Posts
3/03
Posted - Aug 16 2017 : 3:24AM
Then as now, "States Rights" was a Southern dog whistle and stalking horse for white supremacy. No one in the North used that rhetoric, because it was just a way a saying "We have a Constitutional right to keep our slaves."
Was Lee really honorable? Why? Because he was ambivalent? Oh great, that's quite an accomplishment. Protecting his homeland . . . from what? More like enabling his homeland . . . to leave the union and maintain slavery. More like fighting for a cause, slavery, that he didn't believe in because . . . he was bowing to peer pressure? His duty? Why? Because he was "a man of his times"?
Anyway, it's ultimately not about passing moral judgment on him -- it's about deciding whether there's any good reason to celebrate him. I say no.
As I noted on this topic in another thread:
Jefferson Davis was a traitor. A statue for him is like a statue for Benedict Arnold or Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.
The best you can say about Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson (if you even want to go that far) is that they were loyally and ably following the orders of a traitor. Not high praise or the stuff of national heroism. You don't hear anyone praising Hitler's generals "who were just following orders".
About "changing history": Most of the confederate statues were erected during the Jim Crow 1890s and the South's anti-Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s. The Southerners who erected them were not "remembering their history". They were re-institutionalizing their power over blacks and re-normalizing their racial hatred.
Protests to keep those statues standing are, in fact, a big, bad thing -- keeping them up is hardly less bad than erecting new ones (which is, of course, what the alt-Right would really like to do). Tear them the fuck down.
.
.
Edited by - bob on 8/17/2017 12:46:25 AM

Senior Member

2759 Posts
11/09
Posted - Aug 16 2017 : 8:42AM
Should be more statues to Ulysses S. Grant. The South has done a great job of removing him from history. Not completely, but..........
 
All-Star Member

Woman of the Decade
13923 Posts
1/08
Posted - Aug 19 2017 : 4:24AM

[link inactive:404 - Page not found]Southerners, Confederate Memorialists Angry at the Flag Being Hijacked by the KKK and Nazis.
 
All-Star Member

Woman of the Decade
13923 Posts
1/08
Posted - Aug 22 2017 : 12:48AM

I guess over there, anyone who wants to learn about the history of the Nazis can just, you, know, read a book...
just-saying.jpg

Edited by - Smiler Grogan on 8/22/2017 7:17:55 AM

 
All-Star Member

4648 Posts
8/11
Posted - Aug 22 2017 : 2:00AM
^
"The circumstances are very different, of course, but some lessons from Germany might well apply in America today,"he concluded.
The main difference is Germany is ashamed of the Nazi regime. 150+ years after the American Civil War, opinions were far more mixed here about the Confederacy and it's leaders. Historically speaking, the legion of political correctness appeared on the scene only a short time ago.
support-for-actions.gif
 
All-Star Member

pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world
17062 Posts
9/07
Posted - Aug 22 2017 : 3:29AM

Note the excerpts in particular from Davis and Stephens from the period. The authors changed their tune to 'state rights' only after the war since outright defense of slavery would get them nowhere even then. Which makes it even odder to hear far right defense of slavery today.
One of the reasons views are more 'mixed' about the Confederacy is because Southerners have been lying to themselves since the end of the Civil War.
Edited by - BlackSix on 8/22/2017 3:33:15 AM
 
All-Star Member

13083 Posts
3/03
Posted - Aug 23 2017 : 2:43AM
Well this is the nub of the problem, isn't it? Opinions are still mixed in some parts of the South about whether the Union was wrong in taking away their slaves. How fucking sad is that?
Absolutely hilarious to describe an opposition to slavery and white supremacy as "political correctness".
 
All-Star Member

13083 Posts
3/03
Posted - Aug 23 2017 : 2:46AM
That's the charitable viewpoint. Many of them aren't lying to themselves about anything.
 
All-Star Member

13083 Posts
3/03
Posted - Aug 23 2017 : 3:15AM
From the article linked by Black Six:
What a cultural hero. Yep, let's keep his statue standing.
There are plenty of books around that document the run-up to the Civil War in the House, the Senate, and various Southern states' legislatures. Public speeches and private correspondence conclusively document the situation. You have to be willfully ignorant to persist in the belief that the South's secession was based on anything other than the slavery issue.
to see fewer adsAdult DVD Talk is Sponsored by
email for advertising info
 
All-Star Member

4648 Posts
8/11
Posted - Aug 24 2017 : 1:13AM
Taking down statues, renaming schools, those are examples of political correctness. Did you see ESPN isn't going to allow an announcer named Bob Lee do a Virginia game because his name is too close to the Confederate general? That's political correctness gone crazy. Our 20th century POTUS (ex. JFK, LBJ, Truman,Reagan) lavished praise on Robert E. Lee. My point is that this widespread demonizing of Confederate soldiers is a fairly new phenomenon in American history.

Senior Member

"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
6995 Posts
11/13
Posted - Aug 24 2017 : 11:03AM
I'm not hearing demonization of Confederate soldiers. I've heard people asking not to have memorials to the leaders of the Confederacy.
There is a difference.

Senior Member

"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
6995 Posts
11/13
Posted - Aug 24 2017 : 11:08AM
Was Robert E. Lee demonizing Confederate soldiers when he opposed Confederate monuments?
Was he being politically correct when he said:
the unknown pervert
Deactivated User

I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch.
17482 Posts
5/06
Posted - Aug 26 2017 : 3:09PM
Whether the statues stay or go is an issue that should be decided by the local community the statues are in, not by the national media or politicians. Put the issue to a city or county vote next election and give the people who live in the community the chance to voice their opinion. Until then they should not be getting taken down because some local mayor is more concerned that his next opponent is going to use the matter to portray the mayor as racist than he is about the actual viewpoint of the people he was elected to represent.
the unknown pervert
Deactivated User

I'd like to stay but I've got a plane to catch.
17482 Posts
5/06
Posted - Aug 26 2017 : 3:15PM
It's not when the definition of white supremacy becomes any Caucasian who disagrees with the left on an issue or any Caucasian who criticizes any single individual of any minority for any reason and that is the way many on the left want to now define the term. Hell, I've seen whackos on the left calling Charles Barkley a white supremacist now on Twitter.
Edited by - the unknown pervert on 8/26/2017 3:17:00 PM
 
All-Star Member

Meh
6023 Posts
10/13
Posted - Aug 26 2017 : 3:45PM
^^ So I take it you oppose the outside agitators who came to Charlotteville to try and force their political preferences down the throat of the local community? The Charlottesville City Council voted to remove the Lee statue.

Senior Member

"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
6995 Posts
11/13
Posted - Aug 26 2017 : 6:42PM
Believe me, the national media does not get to decide whether statues come down.

Senior Member

"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
6995 Posts
11/13
Posted - Aug 26 2017 : 6:57PM
TUP:
Or she. Catherine Pugh was elected to represent the people of Baltimore, and she decided to prevent dangerous gatherings and confrontations like the one in Charlottesville by taking 4 monuments down in the dead of night. She was elected to represent the people AFTER the previous mayor, Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, had been having discussions with the city since 2015 on plans to take them down.
So she represented the people, who elected her by an overwhelming margin knowing the ongoing debate (and probably her stand on it), to represent them. Sounds fair to me.
 
All-Star Member

Your other left
28339 Posts
3/02
Posted - Aug 27 2017 : 12:57AM
I wasn't aware that the national media had a vote.
Let us not forget that black people were in sufficient majority in much of the South to win elections after the Civil War. Had the South not turned around and imposed Jim Crow in order to reassert white rule and disenfranchise black people thing might be different, but it did, so we cannot pretend that these statues had no import beyond honoring martial figures of the past. They were an assertion of white supremacy and, more importantly, white rule.
As such, they may have a place in museums, but they don't belong on a pedestal.

Member

841 Posts
5/08
Posted - Aug 27 2017 : 1:21AM
Next year, New Orleans will celebrate its 300th Anniversary. Jazz great /Jazz historian Wynton Marsalis is involved in the preparation for this event and it's he that told Mayor Landrieu to take down the statues that are now down. Mayor Landrieu also needed a vote from the City Council to get approval and that governing body, made up of mixed races and genders, voted to take the statues down---only one white council person, Stacy Head---yes, that's her name, supported the statues staying put.
Will those statues be missed?
Not in this city.
Few people come to New Orleans just to look at Civil War statues and their removal is not going to put a dent into tourism in any noticeable way.
On a more personal note, I've been with a lovely African American woman for a long time now. Ask her about General Lee and she'll tell you "he never stepped foot in this city," which then begs the question, why was a statue of General Lee put up in one of the most prominent places in the city, Tivoli Circle, where streetcars daily pass by? Lee and the other statues went up during Jim Crow, a really crappy time for black folks in this city and at the time of the Council vote, some of our African American Council people spoke eloquently as to what those statues represent and why they should come down.
So, the statues are down and the city has built a sort of temporary warehouse to store them. Some folks want the statue of Andrew Jackson to come down from his perch in Jackson Square in the French Quarter. The Mayor, whose second term is about up, has no plans on removing the statue that celebrates the hero of the Battle of New Orleans. What the new Mayor will do is anybody's guess!
Just a report from the Crescent City!
---tb---

Senior Member

"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
6995 Posts
11/13
Posted - Aug 27 2017 : 2:05AM
Not to forget, the statues are not being destroyed. The ones in Baltimore, for instance, are probably going to be relocated in Confederate cemeteries. That seems appropriate.
 
All-Star Member

13083 Posts
3/03
Posted - Aug 27 2017 : 2:31AM
Straw man.
 
All-Star Member

Woman of the Decade
13923 Posts
1/08
Posted - Aug 28 2017 : 2:13AM
It's idiotic, yes, but that was solely an ESPN thing. If there was some outside pressure from anyone that's news to me.
 
All-Star Member

Woman of the Decade
13923 Posts
1/08
Posted - Sep 4 2017 : 7:12PM
(with a link to 538.com)

Senior Member

"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
6995 Posts
11/13
Posted - Sep 4 2017 : 10:56PM
People of honor who still know which way is up need to step up.
Rachel Maddow tonight was showing the "Hail Trump" speech from last November where the guy kept refering to "us" as Europeans, and some kind of twisted message about what victims of something "we" are.
Very illuminating, and in actuality "we" need to nip this Nazi shit in the bud. Oops, too late...
 
All-Star Member

Woman of the Decade
13923 Posts
1/08
Posted - Sep 5 2017 : 4:35PM
So you remember denouncing White Supremacy?
You. Can't. Make. This. Shit. Up.

Senior Member

1769 Posts
6/08
Posted - Sep 6 2017 : 12:45AM
The intellectual sloth of Americans on the right side of this issue is almost as depressing as the willful ignorance of the Americans on the wrong side of this issue.
2nd place.jpg
Edited by - Dr_Fell on 9/6/2017 12:47:08 AM
 
All-Star Member

13083 Posts
3/03
Posted - Sep 6 2017 : 2:07AM
^
What's the sloth to which you're referring? Is the photo you posted indicative of something?

Senior Member

"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
6995 Posts
11/13
Posted - Sep 6 2017 : 12:00PM
Yeah, I thought they were just being humorous.
Maybe if they had more energy they'd knock the monument down? But it's not a particulary offensive monument, imo. People lost family members, and it's meaningful to them to have a monument to the fallen, which is different from glorifying someone as a hero. It doesn't really seem like a racist icon.
 
Doctor of the Erotic Arts

goregoregirl.com
11861 Posts
1/09
Posted - Sep 6 2017 : 12:08PM

The crybabies boohooing online are from ugly, bleak white flight areas outside of the city proper. Many of the "save our heritage" protestors weren't even from Louisiana.
 
Doctor of the Erotic Arts

goregoregirl.com
11861 Posts
1/09
Posted - Sep 6 2017 : 12:12PM
A friend of mine recently wrote this on fb:
'In July of 1863, my great Uncle Lewis Armistead fought and died in the Battle of Gettysburg leading the Confederate charge against Union soldiers. Lying in a Union hospital bed after the battle, Armistead asked captain Henry H. Bingham to take his Bible and send it to the wife of an old friend, General Winfield Scott Hancock of the Union army. He asked Bingham to deliver a message to Hancock: "Tell General Hancock for me that I have done him and done you all a great injury which I shall regret the longest day I live."'
 
All-Star Member

Your other left
28339 Posts
3/02
Posted - Sep 6 2017 : 1:25PM
At least it got you posting again.

Senior Member

1769 Posts
6/08
Posted - Sep 8 2017 : 3:38AM
The ahistorical analysis of the OP. It is as bad as the analysis offered by fire eating apologists for the Lost Cause who want an actual civil war (the kind with bullets).

  • It's a collection of teleological crap that's sustainable only if one knows nothing about American or European history.
  • It rails against white supremacy but it reflects a view of the past that privileges the agency of white men over that of women and people of color. (An absolutely shameful display of ignorance of the received wisdom of more than a half century of historiography on both sides of the Atlantic.)
  • It completely and utterly fails to address Reconstruction and its impact upon the development of modern America.
  • It largely ignores the conditions of the Gilded Age that led to the rise of progressivism. (It also ignores the conservative roots of progressivism.)
  • It butchers the history of the second civil rights movement.

To put it bluntly, if you (in a generic sense) read the OP and nodded in agreement, you're a huge part of the problem. In your deliberate ignorance, you are no different than the assholes who talk about "The War of Northern Aggression" and "Heritage, not hate." In fact, you're a little worse because your political views are based upon a professed confidence in knowledge-based expertise.
Not convinced? Go to the nearest large public library and read some books by people who have done some actual research. .
On second thought, screw it. Keep on believing that you know what you're talking about -- your b.s. had absolutely nothing to do with the election of Donald Trump nor does it feed in any way to the support he's receiving from his base, the same way that their b.s. had nothing to do with Mr. Obama winning the presidency. Twice.


Senior Member

"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
6995 Posts
11/13
Posted - Sep 8 2017 : 8:53AM
It's early here, and I have to leave in a couple of minutes, so I've done a slothful skim of this, but what I'm hearing is that people don't have a right to draw conclusions about this without a thorough study of history. Am I right?
About .05% of the population will be entitled to hold an opinion.
 
All-Star Member

Woman of the Decade
13923 Posts
1/08
Posted - Sep 8 2017 : 9:15AM
^^Points taken. I disagree your interpretations and welcome any real and cogent facts you have to offer besides just spray-painting, but I'll acknowledge that my beginning post was not all-encompassing nor exhaustive.
However, my OP was not MEANT to be all-encompassing nor exhaustive. I believe the majority of people who have been on this thread realize that.
Speaking for myself, I believe the intelligence of those who participate in WN&N in general to be quite high. But maybe that's just me.
Edited by - Smiler Grogan on 9/8/2017 9:22:23 AM
Edited by - Smiler Grogan on 9/8/2017 9:34:05 AM
 
Golden Age Classic

13508 Posts
5/01
Posted - Sep 8 2017 : 11:05AM
Dr_Fell,
Academics can be great, especially when looking at a defunct culture that can't be actually observed in action today. However, as anyone who has done any writing in academics know, you can find source material that matches whatever argument that one is trying to make. Hell, often one can use the same exact source material as someone arguing the opposite of your position.
For anyone who actually questions whether America is still fighting the Civil War needs to look no further than another group who feels the need to come into my state and wreck it. This time they are targeting my town. The group coming in from out of state now is the .
Yes America is still fighting the Civil War. Close your books and look at what is actually going on.
Page 2 of 3 First 2 Last



Jump To:

Online porn video at mobile phone