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Posted - Sep 9 2017 : 4:20PM
Your original post, which was vague to say the least because it lacked a clear referent, turned out to be a commentary on the first post in a thread that's 1-1/2 years old. Your second post clarified the nature of your complaint, which you summarized in the first 6 words that I quoted. You then then proceeded to give a more in-depth description of your methodological objections (ahistoricism, teleology, over-generalization). However, you haven't offered an alternative rubric for analyzing and understanding the present situation in relation to the past, nor have you expressed your point of view about the political and moral dimensions of current events (you've hinted at it, but that's not the same thing).
Did your posts have a purpose other than to say that the rest of us are uneducated, uninformed, and unintelligent, and that we've been demonstrating those deficiencies in this thread?
If so, what exactly do you have to say about the topic substantively?
P.S. -- Eric Foner is great and all, but reading him is not exactly a deep dive into original source materials . . . although maybe you're just suggesting that we should take baby steps.
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Edited by - bob on 9/9/2017 9:55:37 PM


Senior Member

1386 Posts
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Posted - Sep 9 2017 : 8:45PM
^ Bob, I haven't read Eric Forner. Should I? I know about what happened during reconstuction, but my understanding is that his book is fairly biased. If you tell me it is factual I will probaly read it.
 
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Posted - Sep 9 2017 : 9:42PM
^
Different historians have different points of view and different concerns. By and large, they're not liars. Sometimes the facts are in dispute and sometimes new facts are mined from original sources that were not known before. Just as often, disagreements arise out of how the facts are interpreted, including how they're valued relative to each other, and the narratives the writers want to tell based on the same facts. Think of yourself as walking down the street in Manhattan, side-by-side with someone else. When each of you gets home you will likely have different observations. You might remark on the skyscrapers; the other person might talk about the trash in the gutters. Neither of you is wrong. If the two of you both focus on the same skyscraper, you may recall the number of floors you counted, while the other person may describe the style of the architecture.
Eric Foner is a prominent historian and an expert on Reconstruction. I'm sure if you read his book, you'll learn new things and be challenged to rethink things that you thought. That doesn't mean he has a monopoly on the truth any more than the generation of historians that preceded him. It's not so easy. He's acting in good faith and so were they.
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Edited by - bob on 9/10/2017 4:05:04 AM
 
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Posted - Sep 9 2017 : 10:34PM
^^ I think it would be hard to find a book about reconstruction that didn't have a point-of-view. (Even a pretense of moderation is a de facto apology for what happened.) All Americans have biases when it comes to reconstruction.
I would go even further. I doubt you can find a book about any moment in history that doesn't have a bias. If someone is writing about the Mongol Empire, they think it is important for some reason. Some may be interested in the violence and destruction that inaugurated the empire. Others may be interested in how the Mongols united Eurasia setting the stage for the voyages of discovery and the rise of global civilization. One starting point will give rise to an anti-Mongol bias, the other a pro-Mongol bias.
Foner is interested in the freedmen, and biased towards freedom and against racism. If it challenges your own biases, that might be the strongest possible recommendation.
Another book is interested in the era's violence, and is even stronger in its bias: It condemns racist terror. (Until I read it, I had no idea how violent the reconstruction era was.)
I've yet to read . No doubt, Foner built on it, but it might be especially helpful to read a black man's view of reconstruction. It is also a classic, and I have found that many classics deserve their reputation.
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Posted - Sep 9 2017 : 11:00PM
^
"Bias" is a pejorative. Personally, I think it's an unhelpful way to characterize differing concerns, emphases, and points of view. The term encourages us to dismiss fresh perspectives and insights rather than to consider assimilating them in order to arrive at a fuller picture.
 
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Posted - Sep 9 2017 : 11:07PM
Writing history requires selection, and every process of selection has its criteria, whether conscious or unconscious. That's not a weakness, unless the method is haphazard or purposely dishonest. What's the use of reading someone who doesn't have anything new to say about a subject?
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Edited by - bob on 9/9/2017 11:14:27 PM


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Posted - Sep 10 2017 : 4:48AM
^^^^ Bob, Thanks for the informed reply.
^^^ CummingLinguist, Thanks for the informed reply and additional references. Yes, reconstruction was a terribly violent period. People who had just been through four years of war were being forced to give up lands that had been in families for decades. Proper civil protections had not been established. The freedmen suffered extreme injustices. Those that moved north did not suffer the direct violence in the south, but still suffered injustice.
^^ Yes, the term bias is too easily tossed about, I used it in my original question.
^ Reminds me of the old saying, a conversation where everyone agrees is a boring conversation.
Thanks again for the replies.
 
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Posted - Sep 17 2017 : 4:03PM
Point taken.
 
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Posted - Nov 23 2017 : 1:48AM
:
 
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Posted - Nov 23 2017 : 3:19AM
^the one problem i have with this article is that bolded quote; opponents of these policies most CERTAINLY deem them racist.

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"Pornography: That which excites, whether from approval or disapproval." ~ Leonard Rossite
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Posted - Jan 29 2018 : 1:42AM
No we are not fighting The Civil War, we are however preparing for one within our own borders that will leave the US making Syria look like a safe place to call home. And make no mistake about it, when the powder keg gets set off - no-one from Washington DC to state and local governments is going to make an escape or be spared. It will be a free for all based on every line you can think of from racial to religious to level of poverty. See when people realize that neither liberal nor conservative can do anything for them except advance the cancer of capitalism as we know it, the cutthroat society in which we all sabotage each other in a race to get ahead as opposed to helping those around us and therefore helping ourselves - there will be no incentive to vote any which way. There will be a heavy desire to erase the system all the way down to the last general and CEO calling the shots. I'm personally curious if anyone is going to know what to do with their new found absolute freedom.
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Posted - Jan 29 2018 : 7:23AM
^
 
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Posted - Jan 29 2018 : 9:29AM
^^
Bless yo heart.jpg
 
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Posted - Feb 7 2018 : 6:58PM
Trump has two ways of juicing his base: 1) Immigration, and 2) using "the troops" as political cover.
Except for one thing: you've got several ex- and current military members calling bullshit on this.
Besides that though, this is Pure Trump; he will never, ever stop campaigning, and never stop pitting one group against another.
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Posted - Feb 7 2018 : 10:47PM
Only if you buy into it. Were I a Democratic Congressperson, I would get in front of a camera and say, "I believe that the best way to honor our military is to fix the VA, and to do everything else possible to better the lives of our service personnel and their families, rather than to march them around in the hot sun just because Donald Trump loves a parade."
 
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Posted - Apr 23 2018 : 12:01PM
Individuals in
WAIT THE FUCK UP.jpg
 
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Posted - Apr 24 2018 : 10:04PM
Earlier in this thread I posted selection from Jonna Ivans essay:
Now we have a study showing that, well, plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose:

 
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Posted - May 10 2018 : 9:49AM
 
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Posted - May 28 2018 : 8:17PM
^^

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"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
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Posted - May 28 2018 : 9:14PM
This belongs on all of these threads.

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"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
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Posted - May 28 2018 : 9:16PM
Hey, anybody want to know how to spite your face?

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"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
6995 Posts
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Posted - May 28 2018 : 9:18PM
Super depressing, and it's what Reagan was playing up to with his Welfare Queen bullshit.


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"In Defense of Rape and Incest" by Steve King
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Posted - May 28 2018 : 9:19PM
This is why we can't have nice things--because the 'wrong' people might get some.
 
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Posted - Jul 7 2018 : 12:18PM
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Posted - Aug 15 2018 : 10:04AM

30 Confederate monuments have been uprooted over the last year. 75 have been erected in that time
 
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Literotica.com - grover10
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Posted - Aug 16 2018 : 9:03AM

Commentator and former Congressional Black Caucus Executive Director Angela Rye blasted Gina Loudon, a member of FM45's 2020 Advisory Council, over her "nonsense" talking points about black staffers at the White House.
 
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Posted - Aug 21 2018 : 8:14AM
 
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Posted - Aug 27 2018 : 5:22PM
^
Part and Parcel with that:
 
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Posted - Nov 19 2018 : 5:58PM
From NYMAG:
 
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Posted - May 26 2019 : 4:41PM

******

Republican lawmakers such as Ohio’s Candice Keller have openly speculated that the divide over abortion rights might lead to civil war. Last month, Keller drew explicit comparisons with the antebellum situation over slavery, telling the Guardian: “Whether this ever leads to a tragedy, like it did before with our civil war, I can’t say.”

Earlier this month, the Guardian revealed that the Washington state republican legislator Matt Shea had also speculated about civil war, and the “Balkanization” of America, predicting that Christians would retreat to “zones of freedom” such as the inland Pacific north-west, where Shea is campaigning for a new state to break away from Washington.

Asked on a podcast if the two halves of the country could remain together, Shea said: “I don’t think we can, again, because you have half that want to follow the Lord and righteousness and half that don’t, and I don’t know how that can stand.”

******

actually that last part should be, "you have 40% who want to follow false prophets and ordain a dictatorship in America and and 60% that don't."

 
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Posted - Jul 17 2019 : 8:42AM


With a tweeted attack on four minority congresswomen this week, President Trump made clear that his reelection campaign will feature the same explosive mix of white grievance and anti-immigrant nativism that helped elect him.

Trump’s combustible formula of white identity politics already has reshaped the Republican Party, sidelining, silencing or converting nearly anyone who dares to challenge the racial insensitivity of his utterances.

Trump won the 2016 election with the help of blue-collar white voters, some of them longtime Democrats, who are more conservative on immigration and more likely to embrace racial solidarity. Two years later, the 2018 midterm election showed suburban and college-educated whites recoiling at the same policies and statements, propelling Democrats to recapture control of the House.

“Trump is proposing a giant swap: Republicans can no longer count on suburban women and we will continue to lose college-educated men and women, while we increasingly pick up working white Americans without college degrees,” said Ari Fleischer, who was a White House press secretary for President George W. Bush and who has spoken with Trump campaign advisers about their strategy for increasing turnout.

“Nobody knows who will come out ahead in the swap,” he added. “That’s what the campaign will tell us.”

At the core of the strategy is Trump’s consistent drumbeat of equating the white European immigrant experience with the American ideal, setting those on his side of the divide against the politically correct elites, outsiders, immigrants or nonwhites who he implies are unfairly threatening what is good about the country.

His strategy is sharply reminiscent of that waged by segregationist George Wallace in multiple presidential campaigns beginning in the 1960s. Republican candidates including Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush have since used milder variations of race-based politics to try to pry white voters from the Democratic Party.

But Trump has been notable for repeatedly saying out loud what earlier candidates merely hinted.

To try to excite his core voters, he continues to describe Latino immigration as a threat to the nation by arguing that “we don’t have a country” if borders are not enforced. More recently, he unsuccessfully championed an effort to add a citizenship question to the U.S. census that would have increased the political power of white voters by discouraging Latino participation in the count and allowed states to draw legislative districts to exclude undocumented immigrants.

 
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Posted - Jul 17 2019 : 12:08PM

***

During the 2016 election, for example, the influential evangelical author and radio talk-show host Eric Metaxas said, “In all of our years, we faced all kinds of struggles. The only time we faced an existential struggle like this was in the Civil War and in the Revolution when the nation began … We are on the verge of losing it as we could have lost it in the Civil War.

"It's the Flight 93 Election, FOREVER."


***

It's very simple and black and white to conservatives. It's US or it's THEM. There's no "united" states. It's US or it's THEM.

 
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Posted - Aug 2 2019 : 12:23AM
"Divide and conquer." - Julius Cesar.


“We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace—business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering. They had begun to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs. We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob. Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me—and I welcome their hatred.” - FDR

The point being this is not a failing of modern conservatism, this is pretty much standard fare in politics.


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"Pornography: That which excites, whether from approval or disapproval." ~ Leonard Rossite
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Posted - Aug 4 2019 : 1:51AM
Civil War statues wouldn't be as much of an issue I suspect if they weren't glorified by a persistent radical fringe. I don't agree that we are still fighting the Civil War; what we are trying to do is force everyone else into the world into a definitive, barbaric conflict which in theory is supposed to leave them still standing and able to repopulate a subsequently war torn planet. Forget your history and you doom yourself to repeating it, I do think we need things put into context. News delivered in a neutral fashion as opposed to through a right wing or left wing lens. At the very least, we need an environment in you can hear from differing points of view without civil discourse disintegrating into a slugfest or a bloodbath. It's not the Civil War we are still fighting, it's the march toward a level of civil strife and unrest that brings about WW III that we are trying to resist: it's intolerance, ignorance, bigotry, pure hate, increasing homicidal impulses and a mass desensitization that are among our most fearful enemies.
 
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Posted - Aug 4 2019 : 11:23AM
PBS Newshour, being publicly funded, strives to present both sides of the political discourse. Trump, being more Bomb Thrower than Republican or Democrat, presents a unique challenge, but they try.
 
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Posted - Aug 4 2019 : 11:27AM
Well that's what I mean. Maybe the title of the thread is a bit misleading* We're not still fighting *THE* Civil War, but we are fighting *A* Civil War. A new one.

We are in a place where, as you say, intolerance, ignorance, bigotry, and pure hate are OK with a lot of people and with elected officials, and not with others.


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"Pornography: That which excites, whether from approval or disapproval." ~ Leonard Rossite
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Posted - Aug 5 2019 : 2:02AM
^
Ahhh but the question is if you bring up Google news or look up news of any kind - does PBS rank in the top five or even three or is it more like CNN and the NY Post or Fox News??
 
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Posted - Aug 5 2019 : 7:57AM
PBS has no power over how many people watch them. And they don't have much of a marketing/promotion budget.

Fox News is the most watched, and most loathed news channel.

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