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12553 Posts
12/03
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 3:26AM
Looks like Cameron is about to announce his resignation.
England votes itself out of the European Union.
This will get interesting now.
Edited by - redish on Nov 15 2018

Senior Member

Gone for a walk.
1629 Posts
5/08
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 4:30AM
US equities are going to tank tomorrow. It will be a bloodbath.
 
Doctor of the Erotic Arts

goregoregirl.com
11848 Posts
1/09
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 7:42AM
This is so disappointing. I had a feeling deep down that this would happen but I am shocked and saddened nonetheless. I saw a quote from a Vote Leaver today that said something to the effect of "I voted leave but didn't think my vote would count. I'm scared." Wow.

Senior Member

3149 Posts
1/09
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 10:01AM
The Brown stuff will hit the fan now.

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Carryin', contrarian, libertarian
10183 Posts
1/08
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 11:21AM
Rule Britannia!
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5501 Posts
5/04
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 11:47AM
It is a sad day for Europe and the world.
And today that fucking twat Farage admits that that big slogan on the Leave bus about the UK paying GBP 350 million per week to the EU, oh, well, yes, that is not true actually, by the way.
Jacco
 
Doctor of the Erotic Arts

goregoregirl.com
11848 Posts
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Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 11:55AM
^ Sad indeed. United in spirit, though, my European friend.

Member

588 Posts
6/14
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 2:17PM
I am not sure what to make of it. Will our economy go to shit or are we gonna be alright.
My job is on the line here because I work for a German firm, if trade deals are not too good they might decide to leave.
 
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I came to turn on everyone
1721 Posts
6/10
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 3:50PM
Nose. Face. Spite.
 
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4 Wishes Left
611 Posts
8/15
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 4:29PM
IMO, in the long run things will work out. The big word that keeps getting bandied about but never noticed is "uncertainty." You know what to expect if you stay in the EU--you don't know what to expect if you don't. This is all uncharted territory, and it scares people.
But ultimately, things will settle. Things will settle differently than where they are today, but they'll settle. Some people, some industries, will be winners and some will be losers and some won't notice the difference. It's like an economic downturn--some businesses benefit from them, some are hurt. When the economy is booming, some businesses benefit and some are hurt.
Everything I'm hearing is fear of what's going to happen in the next year or two. Where will things be in 2026? Or 2036? Or 2066? Don't know. Could be better, could be worse. Could be the same but different.
It's done--may as well figure out how to make it work to your advantage.
edited for typos
Edited by - Stanley Moon on 6/24/2016 4:30:14 PM
 
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"liable to deprave and corrupt"
5501 Posts
5/04
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 4:35PM
^It might work out in the long run, but most Leave voters won't be around anymore by that time:
HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain
Jacco

fubar

7535 Posts
12/09
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 5:18PM
Use any metaphor you like, such as being first out the door of a burning house. This is a necessary step, with more work and hardship ahead.
 
Impresario of the Inane

"I'll never drink semen from a fucking cup. Sorry." - Brett Rossi
32109 Posts
8/03
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 5:54PM
Cheers to the UK!
I predicted that the globalists would punish the UK (and ultimately the rest of the world) if they did this, but I didn't think it would happen overnight:

Edited by - nietzsche on 6/24/2016 6:07:45 PM

 
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I came to turn on everyone
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Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 7:08PM
So are the globalists a Bilderberg Group cabal who have instructed their market flunkies around the world to sell off stocks, exit the pound and make statements regarding the uncertainty of the future (which clearly it isn't 'cos it's all just so predictable)?
Or is the first world economy actually so inter-connected that the prospect of a new tariff regime emerging once the UK exits a common market will be real thing, and that a further unravelling of the EU, as other shoes begin to drop, will indeed have real world impacts, beyond the emotional hubris of xenonationalistic triumphalism?
Edited by - Sexy Sadie on 6/24/2016 7:10:23 PM

fubar

7535 Posts
12/09
Posted - Jun 24 2016 : 10:51PM
Belief in a global economy could continue for a few more years. Maybe even decades. But that belief will become harder to sustain as the tools of propaganda break.
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Real news. Fake president.
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Posted - Jun 25 2016 : 1:19AM

Edited by - Harri Patel on 6/25/2016 1:28:40 AM
 
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8/03
Posted - Jun 25 2016 : 1:19AM
You're just repeating what the TV tells you to.
You can have interconnectedness with tariffs. This preoccupation with tariff wars is a network news red herring. The function of immigration is to break labor markets in developed countries, especially North America and western Europe. That's what people are voting about -- both in Uk and the US.
 
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Posted - Jun 25 2016 : 2:30AM
^ Care to elaborate or provide links? Or do I just believe you, like I'm supposedly just believing the news media apparently?
 
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Posted - Jun 25 2016 : 8:42AM
As a bystander I have a question , what about Scotland?
Didn't they vote to remain in the UK exactly because of the EU ?
Am I mistaken?
 
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Posted - Jun 25 2016 : 9:39AM
^You're not, the Scottish PM has already started the procedure for a new referendum about independance for Scotland.
Jacco

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Posted - Jun 25 2016 : 3:03PM
He even tweeted that Scotland had "Taken their Country Back" . Memo to Mr Trump. Scotland actually voted IN.
God help us all if he becomes the next President.
 
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Posted - Jun 25 2016 : 3:57PM
^
Also isn't his slogan actually mimicking that of Margaret Thatcher during her first campaign? I believe it was something like: Make Britain Great again.
Is that so?

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Posted - Jun 25 2016 : 5:07PM
^ Correct

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Posted - Jun 25 2016 : 8:44PM
[link inactive:Server error]2.1 million Brits signed a petition for a second EU referendum--a level that means it must now be debated by British politicians.

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2759 Posts
11/09
Posted - Jun 26 2016 : 12:29AM
I have to agree with you on this. I see it here in Maryland. All the East Indians are involved in Pharmaceuticals, and Call Centers for what I do not know. All the Latino's are running Leaf Blowers.
Many Middle Easterners also involved in Tech, and Medicine, and the WTF well off Russians?
I have been hammering this home, the companies that hire illegals are the problem, or are allowed to hire the well trained foreigner of their choice. And the Government has been lax with immigration way to long. Because they want to keep those business's happy. They don't give a shit about regular working class Americans.
That's why Trump is popular on the right, and Clinton is unpopular on the left.
But Germany is doing really well. And it's manufacturing base is strong unlike in the US.
Edited by - 2ferme on 6/26/2016 12:31:04 AM
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"I'll never drink semen from a fucking cup. Sorry." - Brett Rossi
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8/03
Posted - Jun 26 2016 : 1:53AM
Germany has not (yet) outsourced its manufacturing. Let's hope 1. that German removes itself from the EU and 2. that Germany stems its flow of immigrants in order to maintain it's national character.
You mention that the problem is companies hiring illegals. I would add that the globalist effort is to break down national borders and cultures to the extent that the issue of hiring illegals becomes politically, morally, linguistically, ethnically and culturally moot. Put another way, the concepts of nationality, national character and national sovereignty have already to a significant degree been replaced by ideological cliches like "diversity," "multiculturalism," and "globalism," respectively; and the West at large is already dangerously close to arriving at a place where the latter terms make more sense than the former.
In the United States, the idea that foreigners stealing across the border is illegal and dangerous is something most in this country no longer think about consciously. That anxiety is represented, rather, at the voting booth as fear of unemployment, whereas is it represented by the media as "xenophobia."

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Posted - Jun 26 2016 : 3:23AM
This weeks No 1, Well...it ought to be REM End of the World as we know it.

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1/09
Posted - Jun 26 2016 : 3:43AM
Some British MPs were elected on a turn-out of less than 72%. Perhaps we should throw them out also because it was an unrepresentative vote in their seats.
Newsflash. Hillary Benn is sacked. There is a possibility that half of the shadow cabinet will resigned today.

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Posted - Jun 26 2016 : 3:58AM
^ BBC News Link to the Shadow Cabinet part of my previous post
 
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Posted - Jun 26 2016 : 12:32PM
 
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Posted - Jun 26 2016 : 1:06PM
 
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Posted - Jun 26 2016 : 1:32PM
There's a side note , I don't want to debate into the goodness of the Brexit ,I don't live there and I don't have all the required informations to say anything about that, but as everybody noticed lately France and Germany tend to control the EU although control is too strong a word for we are less than a confederation and each Country is still independent. Anyway sometimes to balance their weight Italy and Great Britain supported each other in many occasions even without a direct interest on a matter , now we're alone Spain has not enough weight yet nor has any of the new Eastern European members many of which rely on EU developing funds or EU commercial projects.
brexit also means that the UK ceases to have any influence over any future development of the EU which was their main reason to join the EEC in the first place , to have a say about anything and to have a veto over anything as it was possible back then.

Edited by - LCF on 6/26/2016 1:35:11 PM

 
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Posted - Jun 26 2016 : 5:36PM
Sure, the 'increasing immigration - fear of unemployment' relationship is a thing and, yes, the 'liberal media' may invalidate the poor working classes' legitimate concerns by characterizing them as 'xenophobic', but....
...the working classes in both the UK and the USA have been complicit in the growth of corporatism (and it's secret baby, globalization) by consistently failing to strongly align themselves with the left-wing - there has always been a significant faction who have rejected socialism and voted and acted against their class interests.
Supporting Trump and voting to leave the EU are once again the actions of a bloc of voters completely failing to understand their political situation and being led by the nose by reactionary demagogues.
This is not to say that supporting Clinton and voting to remain in the EU is the right thing to do but believing that the Donald and Brexit are valid solutions to their marginilization is absolutely wrong-headed.
The only viable solution is redistribution of wealth, universal access to health services, free and comprehensive education for everyone everywhere - it's actually not impossible, but will always remain so while individuals prey on hate and fear to achieve personal glory (and the illusion of being powerful).
Edited by - Sexy Sadie on 6/26/2016 5:38:26 PM

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Posted - Jun 28 2016 : 2:24AM
Who's wealth, and how much should be distributed to who? I struggle with this line of reasoning all the time. How much is enough? Where is the line drawn between someones wealth being redistributed, and where. And what is redistribution? America is the third most populous country on earth. It ain't France, or Germany.
Seems like there was success with high Taxation on high income earners 40+ years ago, but you could make a good living putting a nut on a bolt in that same time period. Technology has changed that.
I am not xenophobic, or some racist. The Government is not helping it's current citizens, or representing them unless they have a hefty bank roll.
 
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Posted - Jun 28 2016 : 5:42AM
First world wealth redistributed to the developing world in the form of infrastructural development, construction of hospitals, renewable energy schemes, teacher training, sustainable agriculture, the list goes on...
...and all this without the profits being siphoned back to the 1%.
The influx of economic refugees into Europe, the UK, the US, etc. would abate if there were opportunities to thrive in the immigrants' home countries.
There is no consensus for this, there are no mechanisms, the regimes in many developing countries are venal and corrupt, there are any number of First World agencies and corporations that would want to clip the development ticket for their own benefit - frankly it's pretty much pie in the sky, but...
...unless there is a step change in people's thinking about the issues of global inequality and deprivation First World nations will become bifurcated societies (of gated communities and a desperate, angry and growing undeclass) fighting a losing battle against the continuing ravages of environmental degradation..
Can't wait.
Edited by - Sexy Sadie on 6/28/2016 5:47:06 AM

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2759 Posts
11/09
Posted - Jun 28 2016 : 12:13PM
^
Hey, how about roads, hospitals, and bridges here in America.
You weren't here last week when a major water main broke. Didn't effect me, but a lot of folks in Northern Baltimore County had no water for 32 hours. But I know, just imagine if we had no water. But we are paying for it.
So we are suppose to help out people around the world? That's great if you have the means.
As much as I hate the right, at least I know what they are about. This Neo-Liberal nonsense has to stop!
And last ye forget have you ever heard of the Marshall Plan? What about all the money we have sent around the world?
I wish I had the answers, but I don't. I do agree that low taxation on the super wealthy is nonsense. I can remember Warren Buffet saying if you can't make it on 500,000,000 dollars you have problems.
 
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Posted - Jun 28 2016 : 6:05PM
^
The USA were basically the only nation who wasn't widely destroyed by bombs , tanks and widespread battles , almost any former industrial Country was grounded to zero , no surviving infrastructure , everything had to be rebuilt , there was almost no economy at all. The USA on the other hand had a surplus of materials and had to employ the millions back home from war and nobody was there to buy anything , the Marshall Plan helped to rebuild entire Countries , most materials and machinery came from the USA as nobody else could build anything especially in such great quantities so yes the Marshall Plan helped but the larger part of all that money came back under the form of paid orders and building our economies back we then could build what we need ourselves but continued to buy on our own resources, on the long run we paid it all back with interests.
There was something given us out of generosity though , it was food , boxes of food given us by the American people , Many American families filled those boxed with what they could and those boxes were sent here in Europe and really helped many of us who were literally starving , there was no food , there were no supplies as nothing was working , the highways destroyed, railroads destroyed, the fields were most dangerous and full of mines or unexploded bombs , they had to be cleaned up first , our kids and especially our orphans were malnourished and starving.
Those boxes really saved the lives of many.
And we were the enemies , those were the sons of those who killed their soldiers , possibly their own relatives , and yet the Americans as a people helped us. This was remarkable I don't know how many times this happened in history, if ever .
Edited by - LCF on 6/28/2016 6:06:59 PM
 
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Posted - Jun 29 2016 : 10:28AM
 
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Posted - Jun 29 2016 : 11:44AM
While there were many Americans who would have gladly helped the French, the Germans, etc. after WWII for humanitarian reasons, the government's concern was defeating Communism. Giving starving Europeans food and the means to rebuild their countries was at least as much about winning hearts and minds as it was about Christian charity.
Likewise, all of the 'aid' that our government has sent elsewhere - all of it - has been sent, and spent, in the expectation that it will redound to our benefit.

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Posted - Jun 30 2016 : 10:53AM
Do you and LCF share an apartment?
 
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Posted - Jun 30 2016 : 12:45PM
^ Is that the best you can do?
 
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Posted - Jun 30 2016 : 5:07PM
I actually don't disagree with any of 2ferme, LCF, or Hardware - in fact I think we are debating around an issue in a positive manner with each of us putting forward a viewpoint without trying to abuse other people or demand they agree.
I think we agree that the current socio-political structures are not responsive to the needs of people generally and seem to be geared to ring-fencing wealth and opportunity so as these are only available to an ever-decreasing minority of citizens.
I even think we may agree that some form of wealth redistribution would not be a bad thing - it comes down to whose wealth is redistributed and to whom.
Short of a full scale socialist revolution whereby the means of production become the property of the workers (and which in practical terms would only create a different bureaucratic, if not economic, elite) the only mechanism for wealth redistribution is via governmental regulation and legislation; at such a point the truly wealthy and powerful become exempt (through undue influence over people and process, or tax shelters, or capital flight, or...) and the middle-class become the funders of the redistribution.
Regarding beneficiaries, the utopian scenario I alluded to conceived of a global project while 2ferme identified local and national problems that need resolution. I don't disagree, and in fact the abject state of First World infrastructure highlights a significant stumbling block to global wealth redistribution (even if the 1% came on board, which they won't): what has a higher priority - roads in Maryland or a hospital in Kigali? inner city schooling in Detroit or potable water in Baku? fibre optic cable in Bhutan or clean air in Shanghai? Because everything can't be done at once.
The anger among First World economic victims that underpinned the Brexit vote (hey, back on topic, sort of) cannot be resolved via a binary choice - 'Remain' or 'Leave' - just as in the US choosing either Trump or Clinton will not solve anything (though a choice of one may hasten different problems than the choice of the other - paranoid Security/Law Enforcement versus further Corporate domination over socio-economic decision-making). The problems besetting the First World as it interacts with the uncivil developing World, which ignites the immigration/unemployment flashpoint, are both deeper and broader than disenfranchised desperate people leaving one place thereby exporting disenfranchisement and desperation to another place.
Ultimately the problems will start hurting people's heads too much; demagogues with emotionally easy solutions will have fertile ground into which they can sow the seeds of hate; tolerance, goodwill, sociability, co-operation will wither; irrationally, tragically, people will come to believe that war is the only viable solution.

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Posted - Jun 30 2016 : 10:46PM
^
You can't pay for somebody else until you can pay for yourself. And yes, wealth distribution will only take place by the people that don't have the money paying for others who have even less. How does somebody who is lower income, and has to draw money out of his 401K take a big whack. Like taking 13 Grand out, and being taxed 5 Grand. But if your well off you can play the financial shell game and pay very little in relationship to what you keep.
It just hasn't got bad enough yet in many places. The First World Countries that you talk about. We will see what happens when it does.

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tGrump has no shortage of assholes.
6974 Posts
11/13
Posted - Jul 1 2016 : 10:23AM
Somewhat. But that ignores taxes on the redistribution. Reinvestment in local infrastructure probably pays for itself--or comes close. Building roads and bridges, for instance. At the marginal tax rate, 30% or more goes back in the form of state and federal income tax. The rest is mostly spent, not saved, on local businesses which are taxed on their income, and which reinvest on more stock and supplies. Every pizza purchased is money in taxes, and wages to someone else, and more tomato sauce to be ordered.
That's why austerity doesn't work. It's not the absolute amount of money printed that determines the health of an economy--it's how to get it circulating. If I earn $10,000 and put it in my mattress, it's no effect on the economy. If I spend it to buy a used car from a neighbor, who uses it for his kid's college tuition, that's prosperity in action.
 
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Posted - Jul 1 2016 : 4:08PM
Define what you guys mean with "redistribution" because unless I'm mistaken the global economy does that, when you relocate a factory you're bringing work and opportunities where you place it, by producing and selling goods all over the world they create a flow of money from the richer countries to the poorer , so we see many countries getting more and more industrialization especially with electronics and computer hardware.
We see China raising more and more with the money they especially get from the western areas , it's us who buy their goods mainly, same for India, Thailand , Taiwan and so on , there's a massive transfer of work from here to there and all the money related to it.
I'm not saying that I like this way, but I have to know what you all mean exactly with Redistribution
Edited by - LCF on 7/1/2016 4:09:53 PM

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Posted - Jul 2 2016 : 1:15AM
It's even better when you spend the money on food, clothes, and shelter. And what business's are being taxed, and by how much? And reinvestment in infrastructure eh? I should run you around Baltimore County for a while. It's amazing that this place is so well off, what a fucking mess. I really feel for people in the US that have it worse. And the Zoning Laws suck also. I would really like to know what Maryland does with our Tax Dollars at times. We should be near the top, not in the muddled middle.
And if I save 10,000 who knows what the hell might happen, and I may very well need that money.

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Posted - Jul 2 2016 : 9:39PM
Redistribution is you being made to give me all of your Prince Records.
 
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Posted - Jul 3 2016 : 5:11AM
^
But then I wouldn't have any, thus you will redistribute them again , to me :)
 
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Posted - Jul 3 2016 : 11:47AM
 
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Long and Cursive road to the Ivory Pagoda in the province of Loraine
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Posted - Jul 4 2016 : 9:10AM
Farage resigns as head of UKIP, but not his set on the European Parliament.
Genius.

Senior Member

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Posted - Jul 6 2016 : 10:38AM
Boris. "Well Nigel That another fine mess you've gotten us into."
Nigel "I think we'd best be off now Boris. Don't you Think??"
Bregret-regreting-voting-for-Brexit.jpg
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