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12345
12200 Posts
9/02
Posted - Dec 16 2012 : 9:47PM
Okay, let's keep the political off the Connecticut thread. Put 'er here.
Cody said:
I thought that everybody already bought all the guns they could carry when he got elected the first time, and then they spent every dime of disposable income on more guns when he got reelected. Didn't everybody run out and buy guns after the Tucson shooting, too? And a few dozen other times?
But I guess if they can squeeze any more guns into their trucks and into their houses, go for it. Shrug.
Edited by - flash on Jan 10 2016
 
All-Star Member

"You have sacrificed nothing and no one."
6309 Posts
8/10
Posted - Dec 16 2012 : 9:53PM
I have nothing but good to say about the President's remarks at the service.
The audience/mourners gave him a standing ovation when he finished speaking.

Senior Member

7415 Posts
8/10
Posted - Dec 16 2012 : 10:05PM
It's a huge industry. There have been noticeable upticks around tragedies, so think hundreds of thousands of purchases, but we usually don't get:
King George III couldn't say it better.
So on the politics, that is what the 2010 midterms are for. Any legislation would have to pass the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, and no legislation will, or should, pass the House of Representatives.
Nonetheless, I'm seeing plenty of fellow conservatives pledging to buy their guns in response. So I think people that own guns or people that want to should stop waiting. Before the executive orders start flying, buy your guns, buy them now. People like me will be buying guns this week. I don't trust self-righteous Obama, and perhaps he's just letting loose with empty rhetoric, but better armed than not.
 
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Woman of the Decade
13912 Posts
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Posted - Dec 16 2012 : 11:29PM
Well, nice to see you are being cool-headed and non-reactionary.

Senior Member

12345
12200 Posts
9/02
Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 12:07AM
If people are crazy paranoids, it makes little difference to me whether they have 20 guns or 80 guns. What's the difference?
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Thinking real hard about Katsirk
10435 Posts
12/06
Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 12:47AM
I appreciate directing the political points to this thread, well meaning folks want answers and political thoughts are inevitable. But I am still happy that the original thread is dedicated to the tragedy itself without accusations. I hope we all can agree that we are all saddened by the event, regardless of politics.
Frankly I would like some moderate gun control, and more energy applied to institutionalize the mentally ill. There are people that are dangerous to others and themselves.
But I don't think there is a real cure or fix at least not a huge one. At the most only curbing gun sales is possible, and I would only want to ban the ones that fire a lot of ammunition quickly. Neither do we have the means or apparatus to find all the mentally unstable risky characters , and I wouldn't want the associated problems with invasive aggressive pursuits.
Hence the sad reality, at best we can only close a few cracks, or narrow the window of opportunity that these sick shits use to kill innocent children.
In a small way the ability of the Phelps hate circus demonstrates the problem. A case of haters abusing rights to do something despicable. It is just an insane world and I don't see common sense beating the gun industry, or sustainable working mental institutions financed by a society conditioned to escape the necessary cost/ taxes.
I suppose this is a negative post. I am not trying to be negative, just realistic. The gun culture is just to strong.
In regards with the President I think he has handled matters very well. There is no shame in some emotion either, the blood of our children is heartbreaking and it demonstrates a flawed society. The tragedy of it all is paramount, but still the same it is a national disgrace when our little boys and girls cyan really be killed by a bad man with a gun, no humor or snark intended just the pathetic reality.
Somebody needs to speak, if he can rally folks to improve matters we should try and set aside political differences. To do less is a shameful thing, because this isn't the first or last time it has become a cycle




Senior Member

4025 Posts
2/05
Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 2:27AM
The only reasonable reason to stock up on guns and bullets is to be prepared for the inevitable zombie apocalypse. Not to be protected from unsuspected crazy persons suddenly going postal.
Or wait, I think this IS the zombie apocalypse, just look at all those brainless consumers playing with deadly weapons just for thrills.

Senior Member

Real news. Fake president.
13914 Posts
3/03
Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 2:45AM
^ and letting themselves be played like a fiddle by the gun industry.

Senior Member

Enjoy!
28284 Posts
3/06
Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 5:37AM
This guy is shameless. Exploiting a bunch of murdered kids for political gain. I think politicians really must be another species or something.

Lord of Lust

az-mo-day-us
14079 Posts
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Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 6:06AM

Senior Member

Enjoy!
28284 Posts
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Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 6:25AM

Senior Member

Enjoy!
28284 Posts
3/06
Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 6:35AM
Good old Rahm Emanuel speaking to a group of kindred souls before Obama set one foot in the White House....

Hell. It almost sounds like a plan. Don't it?
Edited by - randomprecision on 12/17/2012 6:47:00 AM
the unknown pervert
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Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 8:27AM
If a War on Drugs does nothing but throw money down a toilet for half a century why would a War on Guns be any more effective? The problem isn't guns. The problem is a lack of respect for human life. Taking away guns does nothing to change that. Take 1000 people with respect for human life, lock them in a building filled to the brim with loaded guns and when you come back the next day to let them out you will have 1000 people walk out. Take 1000 people with no respect for human life, lock them in the same building, replace the guns with rocks and clubs, and you will have some kind of body count the next day.

Senior Member

4025 Posts
2/05
Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 9:19AM
^ Why quite strict regulation, freed of moralism, is probably the best solution for guns, drugs, gambling and prostitution.
Digital Lust
Self-removed

All truth is parallel; All truth is untrue
1030 Posts
10/11
Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 9:22AM
A federal law should be passed stating all firearms in the United States should be registered with the owner's info on a database. Before purchasing a firearm, a person must go through a criminal background check and a proper mental health evaluation. I don't care how long that process lasts, the person should not be allowed to own a firearm until he/she passes that. Current owners who refuse to register their firearms should be imprisoned. It should be easy to get a warrant to search a person's house if he/she is suspected of owning an unregistered firearm.
That's my take on it and it would be a start to cleaning up gun-crazy America.
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Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 10:10AM
We have serious mental illness issues. It's not all about guns. 60 minutes did a terrible piece last night pointing out that the shooter had aspergers - how stupid is that? Stigmatize aspergers kids who may have difficulty socializing but aren't more prone to be mass murderers. We just toss "abnormalities" into big categories and provide little help or understanding as a society to dangerous mental illnesses.
 
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Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 11:50AM
Statistically, aren't people with Asperger Syndrome less likely to commit a violent crime than the so-called "normal" people?
 
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Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 4:42PM
You know, if his mother really was one of these 'end of days' people the shooter might have thought he was doing everybody a favor - helping his mother and all her friends by sending them to a better place. Isn't that what we tell kids heaven is - a better place people go to after they die?
If there is any political capital to be gained from this tragedy then I would much rather it be spent on creating a mental health system that works than on yet another fight over gun control.
There's no law that can stop people from shooting each other, but we could stop pretending that mental illness is not a problem society needs to address.

Senior Member

12345
12200 Posts
9/02
Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 6:24PM
One of the representatives from Connecticut said he'd like to see it as easy to get treatment for mental health problems as it is to get a gun.
That will never happen.

Senior Member

San Diego, CA
7120 Posts
11/03
Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 8:24PM
Friends -
Great, just great. The young man supposedly was Asperger's. Here comes the misinformation and misplaced hysteria. (Not you Janitor or Flash, I'm referring to the general societal discussion surrounding this event.)
As one who has just spent 22 years raising a diagnosed Asperger's Syndrome son, I know quite a bit about Asperger's, what it is, and more importantly, what it isn't.
What Asperger's Syndrome IS NOT, is a mental illness. Or any other kind of "illness". It is a neurological condition, most likely genetic, present at birth, and a condition that a person lives with for their entire life. It is not a sickness. There is no treatment for it. There is no medication for it. It cannot be "caught", nor can it be gotten rid of. It is not a psychosis. It is not a neurosis. It is not even an anxiety disorder. All of which are treated with the use of drugs or other psychological approaches to effect mental health and behavior modifications. Asperger's doesn't work that way. A diagnosis of Asperger's is a recognition and an understanding that an individual's brain is wired differently, from birth, and as a result they and those around them learn what that means for them as individuals. And they learn what coping skills and strategies work for them as they navigate the world. While there are observable characteristics and idiosyncratic behaviors that are emblematic of people with Asperger's, their manifestations differ in every individual and they are not indicators or predictors of mental deficiencies or mental impairment.
And Asperger's in and of itself is certainly no predictor of anti-social or potentially criminal behavior.
BSD

Senior Member

Real news. Fake president.
13914 Posts
3/03
Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 8:39PM
Unfortunately, the mental health issue is as vexing and probably impossible to solve as the fact of there being untold millions of guns floating around. There are so many people who should be involuntarily confined and medicated on a long-term or permanent basis, but can't be, because they're just functional and savvy enough to know what to do and say to avoid being determined to pose an immediate threat to themselves and others.

Lord of Lust

az-mo-day-us
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Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 10:03PM
 
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Posted - Dec 17 2012 : 11:22PM
Involuntary confinements may not be necessary. Modern medicine can do wonders, but there's a problem getting many people to keep taking the pills. We humans have a powerful incentive to be normal, so when they feel normal many tell themselves that they don't need the medicine and stop taking it - Catch-22. That's assuming they can afford the meds to begin with - not a safe assumption to make.
There's also the problem of triggers, like alcohol, bad influences, etc., so keeping people away from those is important, too.
What seems to work is putting people in an environment of care where there is a staff to help keep people on their meds, and who have enough training to know when somebody might need an intervention. This can take the form of a group home which, while not cheap, is a good deal more affordable than individual care, and a good deal better than throwing people in prison.
As to this particular incident, BSD is correct that Asperger's Syndrome doesn't make people violent sociopaths. However, it can make people naive and too trusting, which is why I speculated about the Mayan calendar/end of the world BS playing a role, emphasis on "speculated".

Senior Member

7415 Posts
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Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 2:32AM


Lord of Lust

az-mo-day-us
14079 Posts
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Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 7:59AM
[link inactive:404 - Page not found]Professional troll Dana Loesch accuses Obama of politicizing vigil speech, but shocked to find other trolls disagree.
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9/02
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 9:57AM
Losers!
 
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Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 10:02AM
^
Not surprising though: ever since Obama won the election, the NRA, gun stores, gun conventions, etc. etc. have been successfully pushing the meme of "Get Your Guns NOW while you still can!"
I have said repeatedly that Rush Limbaugh is the best marketing that Democrats have. Well, on the flipside of that, Barack Obama has been the best marketing device for the firearms industry. Dianne Feinstein will now join him in that.

Member

605 Posts
6/06
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 11:06AM
Armed for what?

Member

504 Posts
10/06
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 11:23AM
do you mind clarifying what you mean by this? Or is it supposed to be taken at face value that anyone buying a gun right now is a loser?

Senior Member

7829 Posts
6/01
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 11:52AM
I can't purchase a gun through a dealer, or obtain a concealed carry permit. I have a history of mental illness and violent behavior - in my teens and early 20s. I can, however, purchase a gun through a private transaction and register it OR not register it - both options are legal in Ohio. For what it's worth, I am one of the most stable, least violent persons I know.
My youngest son, who has been hospitalized within the last few years for an "emotional breakdown", can, and has, purchased a handgun legally through a dealer in Ohio. He is not a violent young man, but he is not particularly stable. I fear more for him harming himself than harming others, but anyone can be pushed past what they can tolerate and into a defensive/combative situation.
These are the laws we already have. They are inadequate and specious, they don't keep guns out of the hands of those that are unstable or put guns into the hands of those that are stable. They don't address private sales, which can't be stopped anyway (war on drugs...), and unless you can create a huge populace of whistle-blowers (which I don't see happening) enforcing gun registration would be next to impossible.

Senior Member

7415 Posts
8/10
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 11:58AM
Life's better prepared.
The NRA went dark over the weekend. It's just about time to fight. But gun rights advocates know what they're doing. We're supposed to lie low, thinking this too shall pass. This fervor for half-measures that will save no one and infringe upon the 2nd Amendment rights of law abiding citizens will dissipate and the status quo will survive. And make no mistake about it, we are, at best, defenders of the status quo though we seek to expand the availability and prevalence of concealed-carry firearms at the same time. We have the law, and we have two of the best Supreme Court decisions of all time to make it perfectly clear - the individual's right to own a firearm is subject to local measures, reasonable restrictions based on established facts and record, and absolutely no federal prohibition. So perhaps a new measure on the sale of magazines and firing mechanisms is in order, and even the NRA can't fight it. But there will never be a useless assault weapons ban, no matter who calls it the Sandy Hook/Protect Our Kids/insert slain child's name here Act.
And we will declare victory, and we will deserve victory. And, yes, when another madman commits an act of pure depravity that couldn't be stopped, we will get blamed, and they will say the NRA and the Gun Owners of America, and Colt, and whatever scapegoat the zealots will possibly find has "blood on their hands." But they don't - they're blameless. And you're powerless. And so are we. We were powerless on Friday. Let's start there before exploiting a tragedy for our own self-righteous, limp causes. An assault weapons ban in CT prevented the shooter from buying a weapon, but not his mom. I'm not of the opinion that can, or should, be rectified. There's a reason why even our opponents stress the "too early" caution in light of tragedies. It's too early. It's not time. It will never be "time." The 2nd Amendment doesn't have an expiration date.

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7415 Posts
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Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 12:29PM

Senior Member

12345
12200 Posts
9/02
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 1:05PM
Santa Claws said:
Certainly. The first thought that popped into my mind was, "What a bunch of losers."
If you want further clarification, I have absolutely no respect at all for anyone whose reaction to 20 children shot dead is to run out and buy a bunch of guns.

Member

504 Posts
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Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 1:16PM
*edit*
Read the etiquette.

Edited by - HeyNow on 12/18/2012 1:48:04 PM
 
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Woman of the Decade
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Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 1:19PM
top-secret-north-korean-plan-to-invade-america.jpg

Lord of Lust

az-mo-day-us
14079 Posts
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Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 1:38PM
Hey SC, it's not cool to personally insult anyone here at the smartbuydisc.ru. Do it again and you may find youself kicked to the curb.

Member

504 Posts
10/06
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 1:45PM
I understand just how uncool it is, she insulted me and people I know first.
 
Oblivious

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Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 1:45PM

Really?

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Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 2:27PM
the unknown pervert
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Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 3:47PM
You are assuming that everyone one of those gun purchases is related to this tragedy. That is an awful big conclusion to jump to.

Senior Member

3115 Posts
3/06
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 4:04PM
Don't be silly. Guns are incredibly easy to access. Just ask any criminal.
What you need to worry more about is buying ammunition.
Now that said, while I'm certainly no fan of Obama or his policies, I think he did a good job addressing the nation after this incident. I thought he said mostly the right things and showed the proper sense of decorum befitting his role during this tragedy. I'm certain the politicians are going to lash out at tougher gun laws, and personally I'm not opposed to them (this stated as a gun owner and someone with a CCW permit). What I'm opposed to is yet more laws that do nothing but placate a stupid populace into a false sense of security. I've heard enough comments on both sides of the line to make me believe (perhaps naively) that this time around, they realize that just passing yet ANOTHER gun law isn't going to solve the problem. And I don't believe a gun ban is on the books anytime soon either.
Edited by - lubenluv on 12/18/2012 4:10:57 PM

Member

504 Posts
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Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 5:04PM

Member

605 Posts
6/06
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 6:00PM
Not really. The headline was "Gun sales surge after Connecticut massacre." You don't think there's any causation involved?

Member

605 Posts
6/06
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 6:03PM
60. Next question.

Member

605 Posts
6/06
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 6:16PM
It's interesting to me that reflecting on the plusses and minuses of virtually unfettered gun ownership after an incident like this is considered deeply "political." Who, really, is being political here? As Ezra Klein wrote:
"Let’s be clear: That is a form of politicization. When political actors construct a political argument that threatens political consequences if other political actors pursue a certain political outcome, that is, almost by definition, a politicization of the issue. It’s just a form of politicization favoring those who prefer the status quo to stricter gun control laws."
[ ... ]
"If roads were collapsing all across the United States, killing dozens of drivers, we would surely see that as a moment to talk about what we could do to keep roads from collapsing. If terrorists were detonating bombs in port after port, you can be sure Congress would be working to upgrade the nation’s security measures. If a plague was ripping through communities, public-health officials would be working feverishly to contain it.

"Only with gun violence do we respond to repeated tragedies by saying that mourning is acceptable but discussing how to prevent more tragedies is not. “Too soon,” howl supporters of loose gun laws. But as others have observed, talking about how to stop mass shootings in the aftermath of a string of mass shootings isn’t “too soon.” It’s much too late."
I personally think the Second Amendment should be repealed, as it was written in a time when weapons were far less lethal and it has completely outlived its usefulness. But I also realize this is unrealistic and I am not entirely unsympathetic to the cultural factors and long history of attachment to guns in this country. I don't want to take guns away from hunters, or even from people who want them for personal protection (although I think the latter are foolish in light of research that shows that these guns are far more likely to cause injury or death either by accident or for reasons other than protection). But I utterly fail to understand why citizens should have access to assault weapons that are designed to kill large numbers of people in a near instant. What is the possible justification for this?
 
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Your other left
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3/02
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 6:40PM
As I pointed out in the other thread, the justification for the citizenry owning military grade weaponry is as a bulwark against a domestic tyrant. You have to bear in mind what the world was like when the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written.

Member

605 Posts
6/06
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 7:23PM
^^ Agreed. But as I stated, this right to bear arms has outlived its usefulness, at least in terms of offering hope to resist a tyrant. If the domestic military wants to pacify us, I hardly think we could do much about it, and in any case, the chances of this happening are as close to zero as you can get. What's disturbing is the number of people who really believe that this administration is poised for some sort of nefarious, un-American move against the American people.

Senior Member

Real news. Fake president.
13914 Posts
3/03
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 10:34PM
"Possibly" in the sense that possibly monkeys will fly out of my ass.

Member

504 Posts
10/06
Posted - Dec 18 2012 : 10:53PM
I added the possibly to the link title myself, as I wasn't there and can only take his account as his account. You weren't there either though, so there is that.

Senior Member

12345
12200 Posts
9/02
Posted - Dec 19 2012 : 1:48AM
The guy didn't claim that he stopped anything. He said he pointed the gun but didn't shoot. didn't say whether the shooter noticed the other guy, or even knew he existed. The guy said that he didn't shoot as he didn't want to hit innocent bystanders. Maybe he also didn't want to endanger the three friends and the child that were with him.
Beyond that:
Meli was *off duty* security for Clackamas Town Center through Valor Security Services.
He was qualified to make that sort of decision, and his responsible choice was NOT to shoot.
the unknown pervert
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Posted - Dec 19 2012 : 9:28AM
Maybe but it is also just before Christmas, maybe some are gifts. Maybe there are some good sales at some stores in Connecticut. Even if it is, so what? Would you assume everyone is Timothy McVeigh if there was a surge in U-Haul sales after the Murrah Building incident?
No one has ever accused of having lenient gun laws. Yet people have been shooting each other every damn day in Chicago this year.
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