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Posted - Dec 19 2012 : 9:55AM
Hmmmmm....[link inactive:404 - Page not found]Time To Start Profiling White Men?


*note: I do not support this type of thing at all. BUT~! Conservatives (in the past few years) have recommended this for both Black youth and for Arab-Americans, so......


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Posted - Dec 19 2012 : 9:55AM

Edited by - lindi on 12/19/2012 9:56:05 AM

Senior Member

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Posted - Dec 19 2012 : 6:11PM
Coincidentally, I have both bought a handgun and rented a Ryder truck to transport large volumes of chemicals, both in the past three months. It was FAR easier to buy the gun, background check and all, than it was to rent the truck or buy the chemicals.
That said, what REALLY worries me is.....what "watch list" did I make with these transactions grouped so closely together?
See? That's the troubling part to me. I get noticed and monitored. Losers like this kid killer never do or will.

Senior Member

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Posted - Dec 19 2012 : 7:45PM
Aside totally from the gun issue, I'd like to elicit some opinions as to why the mentality of people to commit these type of acts is so prevalent. I think the gun issue is secondary and the evolution of something with our society (and I'm not sure what it is) needs to be looked at. And no, it's not the violence of video games or that type of thing. Violence has been in the entertainment industry since it's inception. War movies, gangster movies, violent slapstick and in the 40's and 50' some pretty sick, violent cartoons. There is something else. Lack of affordable mental health care? "Mainstreaming" student's with behavioral issues? The geration that was told they were the most important things in the word now coming of age? I don't know.
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Posted - Dec 19 2012 : 8:29PM
"Lizzie Borden took an axe, and gave her mother forty whacks. And when she saw what she had done, she gave her father forty one."
I'm not sure that it is. As you can see by the above verses, the mentally disturbed have been with us a long time. Are the numbers greater as a percentage of the population? I doubt that we can find good statistical data going back far enough to make a meaningful comparison.
However, one thing that has certainly changed is the frequency with which we acquire the news. What might have been a headline in a paper one day, and a followup in the Op Ed page a week later, is now repeated every fifteen minutes on television. Thus, we are paying a great deal more attention to a tragedy, even if we may not really be learning anything more about it.

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Posted - Dec 19 2012 : 9:44PM
I think the fundamental disconnect is that we've convinced ourselves that a person, an individual, can never be "blamed" for their own decisions. It's politically incorrect to tell someone they are a bad person and they've done something bad. We must instead over-value the individuals' self-esteem and instead blame an inanimate object (guns, drugs, whatever) or a soulless thing (bad parenting, ADHD, PTS, whatever).
Until we collectively grow a backbone and hold an individual accountable for their actions, and remove the freedom of choice from those that CAN'T control their actions, we will never fix the problem.
Society has replaced shame with guilt. We lose.

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Posted - Dec 19 2012 : 9:50PM
Yeah...no, that's not it.
A gun culture, worship of guns, easy availability of guns are not "an inanimate object."
When you are aiming to prevent future tragedies, it does little good to skewer the particular individual in a particular shooting. What we are trying to look for are larger patterns that might explain why there are so many times more shootings per capita in the U.S. than in the rest of the 'developed' world.
And, for some reason, gun violence is far more prevalent here than elsewhere.
Edited by - lindi on 12/19/2012 9:50:51 PM
 
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Posted - Dec 19 2012 : 10:46PM
^ Wouldn't you say that has to do with our cult of the individual coupled with the glorification of violence in popular culture? How does conflict get resolved in the majority of American films?
Answer - the good guy shoots the bad guy. The End.

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Posted - Dec 19 2012 : 11:55PM
From the rlankford link on how the rest of the world sees us:
I haven't drawn any tight conclusions on what causes the gun culture. It's not really a part of Canada and other countries that see the same movies as the U.S., and probably still have some cult of the individual. I can't tell the cause of the difference--all I observe is that even though they see the same movies and are living a similar lifestyle, there is not a culture of gun worship. They see the good guy win at the end. It doesn't cause them to want an AK 47. Why?
 
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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 1:28AM
^ I'm not sure that others do raise the individual above the society to the extent that Americans do. Even so, our movies are generally not about Canada or Korea, or their cultures, they are about us and our cultural ideals and myths, or the director's view of them, at any rate. Thus, I assume the foreign viewer has a more detached perspective, much as I do watching Kurosawa.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 2:09AM
How different is Canadian culture that they would be dissociated from our movies? Like, they wouldn't identify with Schwarzenegger as a hero as much as Americans do? I mean, he's Austrian. And he's in a jungle in Central America firing guns at aliens. How would I be identifying with him more than a Canadian would be?
I don't see it.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 3:02AM
I think it boils down to sick minds make people capable of sick things. If someone can't really feel bad about killing someone, then there's nothing to prevent them from doing so, children included. And children get killed all the time. The massacre was unprecedented but people do kill kids. They kill their own kids, other people's kids, all kinds of kids. Only a child killer knows why people kill kids, why they can, and why they would.
 
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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 4:11AM
I realize talking guns with Americans makes about as much sense as talking porn with a fundamentalist preacher but:
There are always going to be extremely alienated people who want to take out their inner turmoil on those around them, there are cultural factors that contribute to this, but I think what most of those outside of the US can see is that making semi-auto or automatic weapons easily available to these people makes their attempts to run amok that much more effective.
The argument that if someone wants to kill a bunch of people you can't stop them, they'll use a knife or something else, misses the point that it would be much more difficult to successfully run around and stab to death 20-30 people.
Some kind of gun control won't stop these kind of things from happening (it happened in Denmark after all) but it obviously reduces the body count when they do.
There was a case in Canada a few years ago where a kid walked onto a campus and opened fire, he no longer had easy access to the kind of weapon used in the Montreal massacre years previously because the laws had been adjusted to make it harder to get those kind of weapons, and the cops had learned from their mistake back then of waiting and cordoning off the area and giving the kid more time to shoot people. So this guy got off a few shots, hurt some people, but then two cops arrived on the scene and shot him dead before he could do anymore damage. This case is barely remembered now in Canada.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 4:25AM
^I don't see why the gun, or "access" matters. This is a person "running amok" in an elementary school, in a first grade classroom, so whether he had high-powered rifle or a handgun is irrelevant. We don't yet know the capacity of the magazines used, but it clearly stands to reason that he would have no trouble reloading and killing as may kids as he did. A semiautomatic weapon, whether a rifle or a handgun, fires at the same rate.
All these spree killers bring along secondary weapons, just in case their primary one becomes inoperable, as the Aurora shooter's AR-15 did. There is no doubt in my mind that the body count wouldn't change if the shooter was forced to rely on the Glock or the Sig Sauer as opposed to the Bushmaster.
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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 4:29AM
Well I gave you a perfect example of why access matters with the shooting in Canada.
Your claim that they 'always' bring a secondary weapon is bizarre and unfounded, the harder to get a weapon, the less likely one is to have a bunch of them.
If you don't think it has anything to do with guns Cody, why do you think the US has so many mass shootings than any other Western country, even adjusting for population?
Are Americans inherently more violent, vunerable to mental illness, etc?

 
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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 4:30AM
Don't think of it as dissociation, think of it as having a different palate.
When we watch an American western there is the whole mythology of the West in the back of our minds, and we accept it as our mythology, regardless of how we feel about it. We may think Custer was an asshole, but he was our asshole. He wasn't Japan's asshole, or Canada's asshole, he belongs to us. No Korean watching this western is going to think of Custer in the same way. Even if he wishes he could have lived in that mythological world he is going to view the movie at a remove, because he has another culture programmed into him.
Look at a spaghetti western. Was it made by an American? Not a chance. Before the first scene is done you know that you are not watching an insider's movie, you are watching an outsider's take on the west.
OK, I'm tired and going to bed. Hopefully, I won't look at this tomorrow and think it complete crap. G'night.
 
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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 4:34AM
Again, you have no real perspective of how the rest of the world lives, in urban centres no one owns a Glock or Sig Sauer, whatever the hell that happens to be.
Realistically, at this point the US is a lost cause when it comes to any kind of reasonable gun control for at least a generation as the country is flooded with guns. Most of the illegal guns in Canada and Mexico are smuggled in from the US btw, something little commented on by the anyone in the US, particularly those on the right who attack Mexico as a narco state, as if it wasn't the US buying the drugs and shipping the guns.


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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 4:57AM
Well, before Sandy Hook the three worst mass shootings in history were not in the United States. It is not an American phenomenon. It might be because there's no access to guns in countries where others might be inclined to do it, and the case of Anders Brevik, for example, shows that madmen will resort to other means such as a bomb but the U.S. will never get to "no access", nor should it - "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
There might be a reason why this massacre took place in the same year as an incredibly violent episode in Aurora, CO. I know of one psychologist that believes coverage of the depravity in Aurora could desensitize someone grappling with thoughts of killing children. Perhaps it is that America's troubled youth are more likely to want to kill, because of unique culture, pressure, media coverage, what have you.
All angles worth exploring, but perhaps this is the progressive conundrum - what you think will work is far from what you can accomplish, especially when the deck is stacked against it. We know what might work, has worked, and we aren't willing to take that step. I'm a little more extreme - I'm not willing to take any step in the direction of gun control.
 
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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 10:25AM

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 11:03AM
I think it's important not to mix things up here.
A terrorist accepts death as a consequence of the chosen method, trying to influence politics by force of violence. They're not actually suicidal. Breivik did not shoot himself but expected to be shot.
The teens shooting up schools basically want to go out with a bang. Most go without it, by themselves... and it's really just as fucked up since they're all victims.
 
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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 11:11AM

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 11:12AM
Cody said:
And if that is what it boils down to, then the cultural difference would be that Americans are many times (possibly hundreds of times) more likely to be mentally ill than the citizens of other nations are. I don't think that's it.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 1:45PM
Respectfully, I disagree.
If we skewered the individual, how does that NOT stop them?
 
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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 2:15PM
It isn't a commandment handed down by God. It is an amendment to the Constitution. It can be negated by another amendment.
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Member

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 2:52PM
/>'Right To Live Life In Complete, Stunned Horror,' Added To Constitution
WASHINGTON -- In the wake of yesterday’s gruesome mass shooting that claimed the lives of 27 people, including 20 schoolchildren, the United States ratified a new constitutional amendment this afternoon guaranteeing American citizens the right to live life in a perpetual state of abject horror. “The provisions of the 28th Amendment will fully protect the right of all individuals to spend every waking moment utterly terrified at the thought of a deranged stranger with a semiautomatic combat rifle gunning them down,” said House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), explaining that the measure also permits Americans to suffer panic attacks anytime their loved ones go to work, school, malls, or virtually any other public location. “In addition, the new amendment prevents the government from ever infringing on a citizen’s inalienable right to lie awake at night visualizing the images of crying children being ushered out of a school and wondering where it could happen next.” The new amendment comes on the heels of numerous other proposed changes to U.S. law, including a highly contested bill that would protect the right of Americans to ignore a widespread, deadly problem until it is far too late.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 3:01PM
Eh, weak shit for The Onion.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 3:31PM
LubeNLuv said:
Because he's already dead (guys in Newtown, Portland, Aurora, Columbine). Or sometimes, he's just already done shooting (guy in Tucson).

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 3:37PM
Cody, Hardware is right, the Constitution is a living document and is expected to be amended from time to time. The framers thus included provisions for changing it.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 4:11PM

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 6:20PM
^ Why even bother. Facts don't matter, and as you pointed out, neither does intellectual honesty. Without these two things any kind of productive debate or discussion is worthless.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 6:25PM
He's not dead.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 6:31PM

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 7:09PM
Oh, yeah, Cody's right. I'm not up to date on my mass murderer collector cards. Aurora guy is the one with the dyed orange hair. Yep.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 8:27PM
In other news, Boehner has pulled his Plan B, and will not put it up for a vote. He can't get the votes.
 
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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 9:22PM
Where is Paul Ryan in all of this?
And yes, Boehner just got kicked in the balls by his own party.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 9:36PM
"You're confusing me for someone who's commenting" - Paul Ryan

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 9:38PM
 
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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 9:49PM
Uh, you just made the same point that I was making: 'It might be because there's no access to guns in countries where other might be inclined to do it...'
That's exactly what I was saying, you might want to at least pretend to listen to what others are saying before responding.
As for it not being an American phenomenon, not exclusively perhaps but the frequency is all out of whack.
There probably is some cultural factors at work as well, Philip Jenkins in his book finds that serial murders exploded in the US starting in the early 70s, peaking in the 80s and declining in the late 80s/early 90s. He finds some reason to believe that mass media coverage plays some role in this cycle, perhaps this is also true of these mass shootings which have become increasingly common in the US.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 10:05PM
Well, I wasn't disagreeing, and I simply took the argument to its logical end, which I find repulsive. My point is that the U.S. won't see no civilian access to guns, nor should it.

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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 10:08PM
Exactly, founding fathers didn't/couldn't predict emails, thermonuclear bombs, military detainment, cell phones/internet (warrants), etc. etc.
Also if you looked at the historical context (militia, American Revolution), they were writing the Constitution with these events in mind.
Also, guns/weapons are tools and technologically based. This means they improve over time sometimes non-linearly. Therefore, guns become more lethal, accurate, and effective, smaller.
For example, assault rifles primary purpose and inception was/is to kill people, not hunting (only adopted secondarily). This means as assault rifles lethality, accuracy, ability to engage more targets faster, smaller size...is fine on the battlefield but also acts as a assymetric weapon/tool for people who want to quickly/efficiently kill massive numbers of innocent civilians (26 kills to 1 shooter in a matter of minutes!!!). Add in advance optics (that are affordable) and these parameters increase, which adds makes an ideal massacre weapon.
I wish we lived in a society where you could own an assault rifle (I'm not anti-gun), but we've gotten to a point where this shit happens too often, kill too many innocent people and shows no signs of stopping, meanwhile weapon technology advances. Our society can't handle it. We made the decision back in 90s, but didn't renew it and this is what we get. I wished we lived in a society where we could drive 150mph down highways, but there's a reason why is society can't handle it (ours can't) without massive amounts of death and consequences.
However, we need to address the biggest elephant in the room. Private sales loophole. If a gun buyer has to go thru a mandatory federal check before buying a gun, but in a private sale many times the seller doesn't even verify the person's identity, nevermind run any checks, all this is a moot point. They need to make checks and rules for private sales to close this.
Edited by - BYOB_Kenobi on 12/20/2012 10:15:14 PM
 
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pornography wasn't sex but fantasies of an impossibly hospitable world
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Posted - Dec 20 2012 : 10:09PM
I don't think there's a single democracy in the West which has no civilian access to guns, everyone else simply has reasonable restrictions.
 
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Posted - Dec 21 2012 : 10:05AM
Reading might be useful.
 
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Posted - Dec 21 2012 : 10:53AM
The NRA is about to hold a presser on this.
My prediction: they ain't backing down one bit. They'll express condolences, hearts go out, etc etc, but then it'll be the same thing: the gun was not the problem here, it was the individual.
 
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Woman of the Decade
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Posted - Dec 21 2012 : 11:03AM
FOX is not showing the press conference: The big story there is John Kerry.
OK, now they're airing it about four minutes in, just in time for the protester to get on the air.
Edited by - zarinafan on 12/21/2012 11:11:49 AM
 
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Posted - Dec 21 2012 : 11:05AM
Good Old Wayne LaPiere. Sandy Hook is the fault of Liberal Politicians and the posting of Gun Free Zone signs near schools.
 
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Woman of the Decade
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Posted - Dec 21 2012 : 11:07AM
A protestor was just ushered out after holding up a sign. This place they're holding the conference in has really good acoustics. You could hear him shouting long after they took him out of the room.
 
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Posted - Dec 21 2012 : 11:11AM
^
That was hilarious.
 
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Posted - Dec 21 2012 : 11:14AM
Another protestor!! Didn't they screen people before hand, hahahahahaha.
 
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Posted - Dec 21 2012 : 11:15AM
More from Wayne: it's all the media's fault, both in airing violent movies, and demonizing legal gun owners in the press.
 
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SAMCRO
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Posted - Dec 21 2012 : 11:16AM
If I was those press people I'd just get up and leave, pick up a copy of what he's saying and go do something more productive because he's not offering anything new.
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